In factory preset 005 'Double verb' should the reverb block not be before the amp?

G

Gene

Inspired
Hi, I am wondering something.................

I have read here http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=Reverb_effect that the reverb block should be in front of the amp block if you are looking for an authentic built in 'spring reverb' sound in an amp.

Yet in the factory 005 Double Verb preset (Fender Twin Reverb model) the reverb block is last in the grid.
Why is it not before the amp block?
I'm complaining or anything just curious is there some particular reason the preset was built with the reverb as the last block in the grid is all.

Any ideas?
 
I think most people prefer the reverb towards the end of the signal chain, just because it sounds better musically. Obviously, in a real tube amp, you're stuck with the reverb going before significant amounts of amplification and distortion. So the reverb and it's artifacts get amplified and distorted along with the original signal.

Are the factory presets supposed to be the most authentic reproductions of the original amps, or are they supposed to be the best sounding implementations of those amps?
 
StickMan said:
Are the factory presets supposed to be the most authentic reproductions of the original amps, or are they supposed to be the best sounding implementations of those amps?
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they are good starting points. i don't think they were ever meant to be "THE" presets to use or the mark of authenticity of an amp.
 
I moved it round a twin before and after amp. Sounds good either way but Cliff is right in what I read online in the Reverb block wiki, it does sound more authentic before the amp block I think, more lush like a amp spring. To my ears when placed at the end of grid the verb takes on a more pronounced reverb tail (more like a Hall or plate) whereas in front the 'lushness' is to my ears is more like what I am used to hearing from an amp with Accutronics spring or some such. But, just my opinion. Either way I'm getting some nice old school tones at the moment creating these presets. Happy Chappy :)
 
I see the Factory presets as a mechanism for FAS to demonstrate some of the various capabilities of the unit.

Many of them may be great to use, as-is, and you are certainly welcome to do that, but I don't think they are intended to be a final resolution to the absolute best, most accurate, or whatever tones the individual blocks are capable of. They are a stepping off point, to plant some seeds, or get us in the ball-park, or showcase a tone-style that may be characteristic of a specific song.
 
StickMan said:
I think most people prefer the reverb towards the end of the signal chain, just because it sounds better musically. Obviously, in a real tube amp, you're stuck with the reverb going before significant amounts of amplification and distortion. So the reverb and it's artifacts get amplified and distorted along with the original signal.

Are the factory presets supposed to be the most authentic reproductions of the original amps, or are they supposed to be the best sounding implementations of those amps?
Click to expand...

Is the reverb built into tube amps ever after the preamp but before the power tubes? Just curious. I think in this case, for a related preset, it would be better to just place it at the end of the chain as is.

But when you say significant distortion, I am assuming this means reverb in tube amps is usually before all stages of the ampification circuitry. .
I'm not very knowledgeable so just curious really.
 
jesussaddle said:
Is the reverb built into tube amps ever after the preamp but before the power tubes? Just curious. I think in this case, for a related preset, it would be better to just place it at the end of the chain as is.
But when you say significant distortion, I am assuming this means reverb in tube amps is usually before all stages of the ampification circuitry. .
I'm not very knowledgeable so just curious really.
Click to expand...
I would imagine it before pre. Anyway, the old fender bandmasters etc were used a lot with the external Fender reverb tank (see https://www.google.ie/search?q=fend...aKmKzMAhUHBsAKHdvHBUYQsAQIMg&biw=1600&bih=788) which was plugged into BEFORE the amp, so the reverb tank comes first. Going by this I am putting the verb first in the chain.
 
If you edit the 005 preset of a fender twin and pull the reverb to the front of amp and back to end - do an A/B test on it you will hear the difference. To me it sounds they way it should ( like real thing) in front of the amp.

I am also finding choosing and using the right MIC in the cab block with the right distance and add some room makes a huge difference on getting these older style sounds to sound at their best. Old school Chuck Berry, Blues, early rock & roll vibe tones - the mic choice and distance very important.
 
Gene said:
If you edit the 005 preset of a fender twin and pull the reverb to the front of amp and back to end - do an A/B test on it you will hear the difference. To me it sounds they way it should ( like real thing) in front of the amp.

I am also finding choosing and using the right MIC in the cab block with the right distance and add some room makes a huge difference on getting these older style sounds to sound at their best. Old school Chuck Berry, Blues, early rock & roll vibe tones - the mic choice and distance very important.
Click to expand...

That's the beauty of it, there so many ways to perfect the sound we are looking for. :)
 
The only amp (in common volume production) I know of with reverb in front of the preamp is the Vibro-King. All vintage Fenders (and everything else AFAIK) have the reverb send/return after the gain stages and tone stack, before the phase inverter.

Putting the reverb in front of the amp would emulate a Vibro-King (which essentially has a Fender outboard tube reverb unit built into the chassis), or, say, a tweed Fender with the outboard tank. But you'd want it after the amp for everything else, since you can't really put it between preamp and power amp easily.
 
AdmiralB said:
The only amp (in common volume production) I know of with reverb in front of the preamp is the Vibro-King. All vintage Fenders (and everything else AFAIK) have the reverb send/return after the gain stages and tone stack, before the phase inverter.

Putting the reverb in front of the amp would emulate a Vibro-King (which essentially has a Fender outboard tube reverb unit built into the chassis), or, say, a tweed Fender with the outboard tank. But you'd want it after the amp for everything else, since you can't really put it between preamp and power amp easily.
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Admiral, that is good to know.............
 
You can have both you know ;); I modded the preset to put a little (medium) spring 'verb before the amp, and then the "room" after the amp. Tune to taste so you aren't too deep in verb (the "Mix" parameter is your friend).

Between I/A switches, Scenes and X/Y states you can have various states of reverb going on easily.

On another note, a quick ~100-120 ms delay will help you get a Bonnamassa style slapback effect.
 
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I do like Reverb before the Amp block for some sounds. Like surf and Gary Clark Jr songs.
 
I get closest to my vintage Princeton reverb, vintage Dual Showman reverb and vintage silver faced Twin reverb by putting the verb between the amp and cab and following the verb with drive or comp.

Amp -> Rev -> Comp -> Cab
or
Amp -> Rev -> Drive -> Cab

Part of the mojo is the reverb being compressed and even distorted (depending on your tastes).

This setup gets a little more clarity than before the Amp but with plenty of vintage vibe.
 
In a Twin, isn't the reverb after the tone stack? I was always under the impression that the most accurate way to replicate onboard reverb was to place it between the amp and cab block.

Figure, if you place it before the amp, you're actually reverberating your guitar signal, and sending that modified signal through the amp, which isn't entirely accurate. If you place it after the amp, you're reverberating the coloration of your cab IR, which also isn't entirely accurate. Closest thing is between the two.

Of course, that doesn't mean that it will sound the best. But I think it would most accurately represent the signal of a real Twin Reverb.
 
∞Fractals said:
I modded the preset to put a little (medium) spring 'verb before the amp, and then the "room" after the amp. Tune to taste so you aren't too deep in verb (the "Mix" parameter is your friend).

Between I/A switches, Scenes and X/Y states you can have various states of reverb going on easily.

On another note, a quick ~100-120 ms delay will help you get a Bonnamassa style slapback effect.
Click to expand...

Do you mind posting your preset? I'd like to experiment a bit and this sounds like a great place to start.
 
I'm headed out of town so this will have to wait until I get back ... however it super simple, just drop a a reverb block (revb2) into the current single path (I placed in the row below, after the drive, before the amp) and set to "spring" and adjust mix to taste; you might change the "room" reverb at the end of the chain to reduce the over all amount so you're not buried in reverb. I'll see if I can post a screen shot later.
 
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