I'm Just Going to Leave This Here

Agreed. I've never been a big fan of this model. Though with a ballooning payroll I can see the attraction.

I'll throw my .02 cents in. I generally hate these nickel and dime strategies as well. HOWEVER, in this case I think it could work really well, and here's why: I would venture to guess that very few people use even a fraction of the many amp models. As such, it becomes overkill and almost a waste for them. Features they don't need for added cost. If the initial unit came with a handful of the most common basic amp types (say, 10 clean models, 10 crunch models, 10 aggressive full-on distortion models - or however "models" are defined), then the unit cost can be kept down but those who want to invest in more models can (and probably will, gladly) do so.

That said, you could still offer a "premium" version with everything included (even at a discount over purchasing all separately) and there would be plenty of takers.

For me, this wouldn't be nearly as offensive as the typical "nickel and dime" IAP model. I'd be on board with it for sure.

Still, you'd have to very carefully consider what this would mean for the whole ecosystem of Axe-Fx. By that I mean are you going to stop amp/cab model sharing? If so, that's a major feature removal. If not, how do you prevent people from just sharing paid models? If you resort to DRM, you're talking about more staffing, more technical headaches, and more PR problems (people hate DRM, because it rarely works 100% correctly 100% of the time, and people get REALLY frustrated when they've paid for something that doesn't work right). Although it seems like this is already being done, to an extent, with the cab packs, no? Do those have some kind of DRM?
 
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it makes sense because an all-in-one floor processor in the 1000 price range is currently un-contested. There is no competition. At first, I thought the AX8 at around 1000 would be impossible... but with the 'al a carte' idea that has been thrown around lately, I could definitely see a $999 price point.

I don't see the POD or the AX8 to be competition for eachother... I see the AX8 as a higher quality alternative at a higher price.
I'm not convinced, tbh. I think we are shooting for a mid-level market here that doesn't really exist.

According to some economical studies, there is no such thing as a mid-level market in leisure products. There is strong brand recognition which works in favor for Fractal, but mid-level products, per se, don't do well. You can see that everywhere from mobiles to PCs to cars to musical instruments: either people go for the low price segment or they go full luxury. There's hardly any middle ground.

If we apply this to modellers, then this means that customers either take the budget solution (POD) or go all the way and take a kemper/Axe. Don't get me wrong: there will be people that pay the extra cash for a potential AX8 to get that quality upgrade over the POD, but will it be enough to justify the engineering cost involved? I'm not sure about that. Research has shown that once customers step over a certain "magic number" (I'd say in terms of guitar gear, this is around 1000$), they are way more likely to drop in another grand to get the current top-end product.

This wikipedia article explains this effect pretty good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_point
 
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I can get that, however the main attraction here is the all-in-one pedalform factor, no?
Minus expression pedal. I'm not sure why Fractal decided to not include an on-board expression pedal on the AX8 (especially if they already produce one they could easily be included in the package). If the AX8 is meant as an all-in-one solution, why do I need a second component?
 
Although it seems like this is already being done, to an extent, with the cab packs, no? Do those have some kind of DRM?

There is no DRM for IR's. It's basically the honor system.

Minus expression pedal. I'm not sure why Fractal decided to not include an on-board expression pedal on the AX8 (especially if they already produce one they could easily be included in the package). If the AX8 is meant as an all-in-one solution, why do I need a second component?

Personally, I'm glad they did not. It's another mechanical part that can break necessitating a repair. Also, the choice if pedal is important to some people. Some prefer a wider sweep, some prefer a pedal more like a traditional wha, some prefer one with a toe-switch, and some prefer one without a toe-switch and use auto-engage.
 
I have the same issue with this pair of leather pants , they are a custom python black and white .I am a 36 waist and the pants only came in size 48 they weren't cheap but I bought them in the hopes that someday they may fit , if I get larger .

Do you see where your logic maybe be flawed ??
No. My car is functional, comfortable, very useful and is used every day. I enjoy it immensely & when the odd occasion comes when I have to carry more people than myself I can do it without borrowing someone else's vehicle. Meanwhile, you are wistfully looking at your custom 48" python black & white pants and wishing you were fat so you can make use of them. Very different scenarios. :)

Seriously though, I understand the concept & that some people feel they are paying for something that they don't use. Personally I'd rather have more headroom & have the options up front. Others would prefer to be more frugal and just pay for what they use. That is very understandable. Value is in the eye of the beholder. Whether that is a business model that Fractal thinks would work for them is up to them to decide (& whether it's successful is dependent on how their system is implemented & then accepted by the customers).

The only real worries I have would be that Fractal may find this system harder to manage logistically, especially with regard to upgrades & that as a result we may not be as blessed with the constant free upgrades that we have become accustomed too. If they go this way I also hope it's financially successful for them as i want them to be around for a while yet.
 
There is no DRM for IR's. It's basically the honor system.

I LOVE this and it makes me more interested in buying into the ecosystem (including IRs). It's like with GOG (Good Old Games) for video games. No DRM. I don't play a ton of PC games, but I buy almost all of them from GOG, and I have never pirated a game in my life. I just like the way they do business.
 
Yeah, the decision will be to sell it at a lower price with only a few built-in models and then get people to upgrade or sell it at a higher price with all the models. There are pros and cons for each.

Does Line6 still do this? I think the XT you could buy model packs for like $50 or something. Do they do this with the HD?


Hmmmmm....why not do both?

Sell both options

1. AX8 with a few built in models XXX$

2. AX8 with all models XXXX$

Id definitely be in for the full shebang. It'd be nice though to have both options available. Probably not possible but it'd be awesome
 
Minus expression pedal. I'm not sure why Fractal decided to not include an on-board expression pedal on the AX8 (especially if they already produce one they could easily be included in the package). If the AX8 is meant as an all-in-one solution, why do I need a second component?

smaller package, lighter weight, cheaper shipping, lower manufacturing cost, more profits from selling their current expression pedal separately, cheaper initial cost of AX8 (which was the goal all along), a lot of users already have their own expression pedal of choice. etc. etc. etc.
 
From a CabLab thread in another sub-forum...

The application has been done for a while. We've been working on the iLok stuff and integrating that into the online store. It's a pain in the neck but it will serve as the foundation for our other upcoming software products.

I don't think this DRM will be on IRs themselves, just software. Although the .ir format is something 3rd party IR sellers have to license through Fractal.
 
I'm not convinced, tbh. I think we are shooting for a mid-level market here that doesn't really exist.

According to some economical studies, there is no such thing as a mid-level market in leisure products. There is strong brand recognition which works in favor for Fractal, but mid-level products, per se, don't do well. You can see that everywhere from mobiles to PCs to cars to musical instruments: either people go for the low price segment or they go full luxury. There's hardly any middle ground.

If we apply this to modellers, then this means that customers either take the budget solution (POD) or go all the way and take a kemper/Axe. Don't get me wrong: there will be people that pay the extra cash for a potential AX8 to get that quality upgrade over the POD, but will it be enough to justify the engineering cost involved? I'm not sure about that. Research has shown that once customers step over a certain "magic number" (I'd say in terms of guitar gear, this is around 1000$), they are way more likely to drop in another grand to get the current top-end product.

There are a number of flaws in your argument: To use your examples, PC's Car, and Musical instruments are wildly different markets. Non-Apple PC's are a modular commodity and sales are dictated by channel efficiency and price. Vast majority at the bottom with a few specialist brands at the top. Nobody makes any real money. Apple have essentially created their own market - they are in the 'Apple' business. Cost is less of a factor and Apple are always careful to have a spread of prices. All strata sell well and Apple is of course the most successful company in the history of mankind.

In automobiles and guitars there is an established spread of price points and there is no evidence of the lack of a mid market that you describe. What doesn't sell well are mid market BRANDS. There are more BMW's and Mercs sold in the UK than Fords these days and it's because the luxury car makers have successfully diffused their brands downwards into the middle price bands. Similarly Gibson and Fender always have a range of price points and, however much publicity the Custom Shop '59 Les Pauls garner, its the mid market guitars that make the unit numbers and profits.

Cliff created his own market with AFX. There is no competition at the high end and whatever personal foibles people may have there is no denying the respect and strength of the Fractal brand. Diffusing that brand down to a mid-market price point (that Kemper has already established remember) is the smart play.
 
I agree with VinnieRice.

FAS is loosely following the business model that PRS followed. Established a high end product (Custom 24, etc.), used by artists across the globe. Build a base of pro and non-pro consumers to generate buzz and recognition. Release a budget friendly version of the high end product (SE followed by S2). Don't over-expand or grow too fast. Someone in another thread compared Cliff to Leo Fender and Les Paul... I don't see it. No offense. I see him as more of a Paul Smith - someone who took something already existing and blazed a new path and mastered the product.

I think that analogy fits better than the car analogy on so many levels.
 
A looper upgrade that enables 3 separate looper units with current features would be awesome.

A 3-unit looper would enable building and switching between different song elements: verse, bridge and chorus for example.

This is what most loopers are missing. IMO, building multiple sections is far more stimulating than looping the same one over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

I use a boomerang. If it's possible to get those features into (a future version of) the axe with an mfc expansion board for looper control oh lord!
 
I agree with VinnieRice.

FAS is loosely following the business model that PRS followed. Established a high end product (Custom 24, etc.), used by artists across the globe. Build a base of pro and non-pro consumers to generate buzz and recognition. Release a budget friendly version of the high end product (SE followed by S2). Don't over-expand or grow too fast. Someone in another thread compared Cliff to Leo Fender and Les Paul... I don't see it. No offense. I see him as more of a Paul Smith - someone who took something already existing and blazed a new path and mastered the product.

I think that analogy fits better than the car analogy on so many levels.


Nice analogy. PRSh had it harder in a way; breaking into an established market with strong incumbents.
 
I've been an Axe 2 user for a long time even though is my first post. My thoughts would be either release the AX8 with everything just like the Axe FX has always been or a completely empty unit (amp model-wise, I would still prefer all of the effects) with maybe a credit for 10 or 20 amp models and then an individual fee per new amp model. I personally dislike packs of products like a Fender amp pack or a jazz amp pack because I always want just one or two amp models in a certain package and the rest are wasted...for me. I am really looking forward to the AX8. I think it will be a huge win for you Cliff.
 
smaller package, lighter weight, cheaper shipping, lower manufacturing cost, more profits from selling their current expression pedal separately, cheaper initial cost of AX8 (which was the goal all along), a lot of users already have their own expression pedal of choice. etc. etc. etc.
I don't disagree, but I would have preferred to have an expression pedal.

This is FAS. It could've been an assignable auto engaging pedal with toe switch to instantly turn it into exp2. And let's throw a defeatable spring load in there, why not.

I'm sorry, I know the point here is to hit a lower price point. Just my $0.02, but I'm not interested in that. I want a Lambo at my feet.
 
There are a number of flaws in your argument: To use your examples, PC's Car, and Musical instruments are wildly different markets. Non-Apple PC's are a modular commodity and sales are dictated by channel efficiency and price. Vast majority at the bottom with a few specialist brands at the top. Nobody makes any real money. Apple have essentially created their own market - they are in the 'Apple' business. Cost is less of a factor and Apple are always careful to have a spread of prices. All strata sell well and Apple is of course the most successful company in the history of mankind.

In automobiles and guitars there is an established spread of price points and there is no evidence of the lack of a mid market that you describe. What doesn't sell well are mid market BRANDS. There are more BMW's and Mercs sold in the UK than Fords these days and it's because the luxury car makers have successfully diffused their brands downwards into the middle price bands. Similarly Gibson and Fender always have a range of price points and, however much publicity the Custom Shop '59 Les Pauls garner, its the mid market guitars that make the unit numbers and profits.

Cliff created his own market with AFX. There is no competition at the high end and whatever personal foibles people may have there is no denying the respect and strength of the Fractal brand. Diffusing that brand down to a mid-market price point (that Kemper has already established remember) is the smart play.
Hmm, good point with Gibson and Fender. Maybe you're right and there is a market for it; it's just that I see so many PODs and almost no Eleven Racks or G-Systems (that are kind of the only units in the mid-range as of now). The former is awesome quality for the price, btw..
 
If the goal is to attract new customers, the unit has to come with a good selection of amps, although that selection could be flavored toward particular tastes. It seems to me there are two basic markets in amps: metal and rock-only players and everybody else. I'm not a metal player, so super high gain amps don't interest me at all. In the non-metal zone there are plenty of amps I don't care for (eg, Vox, Marshall), but I don't mind them being part of the group if I were buying a "flavor".
 
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