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Ignore Redundant PC... Not being ignored?

Fotukito

Inspired
Using FW 12.14: Whenever sending a PC change via MIDI that targets the Preset already loaded, it changes to the Default Scene for that Preset.
EDIT For future visitors: the above behavior is as designed, even if Ignore Redundant PC = ON.

My understanding was with Ignore Redundant PC = ON, it should just ignore the PC if it matched the loaded Preset and therefore make no change to the loaded Scene.

I've verified:
Only a Program Change MIDI message is being transmitted (nothing else extraneous).
Ignore Redundant PC = ON
Same behavior with any preset (not preset-dependent)
(Saw same behavior with FW 12.13)

(Using a Scene select CC by itself works fine as expected.)

Any ideas?
 
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flying_walrus

Experienced
Using FW 12.14: Whenever sending a PC change via MIDI that targets the Preset already loaded, it changes to the Default Scene for that Preset.

My understanding was with Ignore Redundant PC = ON, it should just ignore the PC if it matched the loaded Preset and therefore make no change to the loaded Scene.

I've verified:
Only a Program Change MIDI message is being transmitted (nothing else extraneous).
Ignore Redundant PC = ON
Same behavior with any preset (not preset-dependent)
(Saw same behavior with FW 12.13)

(Using a Scene select CC by itself works fine as expected.)

Any ideas?
a "redundant PC" is the same PC a couple of times in a row, not a PC that happens to do nothing because you're already on the preset it takes you to
 

Fotukito

Inspired
Why would you send a PC if you don't want anything to happen?

I heavily use automation synchronized with a backing track to control guitar presets (using Bandhelper); I don't use pedals (other than expression) at all.

In BandHelper I want all preset selection MIDI strings to be 'stateless', i.e. don't care what the last Preset was, just change it to whatever I need next. This implies these preset/scene strings should be a PC (for the Preset) followed by the Scene CC. That would work fine for scene changes within a Preset if a redundant PC was ignored.
 

Fotukito

Inspired
a "redundant PC" is the same PC a couple of times in a row, not a PC that happens to do nothing because you're already on the preset it takes you to
Hmmm... so I see if I send a PC to select a Preset, then manually change scenes (on the front panel), then send the same PC it also doesn't ignore it and again changes back to the Default Scene. Bottom line, it appears there is no scenario where Ignore Redundant PC=ON will prevent a received PC from changing to the Default Scene. If that's the way it works, I'll adapt to it, but 'ignoring' doesn't seem very useful if it forces a Scene change.
 

Satch4u3

Experienced
I have never been able to get the Ignore Redundant PC change setting to do what it's supposed to since I received my III at launch. It has always loaded the default scene before going to the intended scene. So I gave up on it. Don't be a quitter like me.
 
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IronSean

Experienced
Maybe "Ignore Redundant" is a lot smaller scope than you think? Maybe it just means "If I get the same signal twice within 50ms ignore the second one" to handle controllers where the momentary switch "flickers" a little when at the edge of being pressed or something similar.

If you sent a MIDI message to select Preset 12, then you manually changed to preset 15, would you want it to ignore the next midi message selecting preset 12 when you send it 3 minutes later? Ignoring a signal forever if it's the same as the last one received also sounds like it could be problematic.
 

Fotukito

Inspired
Maybe "Ignore Redundant" is a lot smaller scope than you think? Maybe it just means "If I get the same signal twice within 50ms ignore the second one" to handle controllers where the momentary switch "flickers" a little when at the edge of being pressed or something similar.
Yes, that could make sense though to me it would mean more of a debouncing measure than a user feature. I interpreted the manual description as something to turn on to prevent PCs for the same Preset from altering your current sound state.
If you sent a MIDI message to select Preset 12, then you manually changed to preset 15, would you want it to ignore the next midi message selecting preset 12 when you send it 3 minutes later? Ignoring a signal forever if it's the same as the last one received also sounds like it could be problematic.
No, but I would not expect that kind of implementation; I had assumed it's purpose was not just to filter a MIDI input queue, but rather to meet a need for stateless Preset+Scene requests.

I have never been able to get the Ignore Redundant PC change setting to do what it's supposed to since I received my III at launch. It has always loaded the default scene before going to the intended scene. So I gave up on it. Don't be a quitter like me.
Ha! Well, as a new user I've only been trying to understand what this parameter really does, and if I was doing something wrong. I'm OK learning it doesn't do what I thought, and moving on to alternatives. (This is minor quibble compared to everything this box does!)

I'm at the initial stages of generating a massive amount of MIDI automation so I have to pick the right strategy. Clearly stateless Preset+Scene messages won't work, since they create audio glitches as it loads the Default Scene before going to the target scene. So I'll either use PC Mapping (which I've observed does not have this issue) and deal with the limited addressable presets and a bit more bookkeeping, or use independent PCs and Scene CCs and deal with the more complex state management in my upstream software.

But if not already requested: Respectfully wish for Ignore Redundant PC to also suppress Default Scene selection if the target Preset is already active. :)
 

Fotukito

Inspired
The current behavior is as designed. The reasoning behind the implementation is that if Ignore Redundant PC is on then sending a PC gets you back to the original state of the preset but there is no audio dropout as would happen if Ignore was off.
Thanks for the explanation!
 
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