Ideas for bumping recording quality a notch.

mwd

Power User
I would like to step up my recording quality, if possible for $2000 or less, yet keep the chain as simple as possible. Most stuff is direct however we have 2X LA610MkII mic pres and a nice Rode K2 for vocals and several other nice mics for acoustic stuff. So I am thinking this bump will need to be in the audio interface.

I use an iMac on OSX Yosemite. I have USB and Firewire 800, no Thunderbolt. I use Logic Pro 9 and Logic X via Focusrite Saffire 40 and a RME Babyface.

I don't need a lot of channels as I primarily do 1 or 2 channels at a time. I have no trouble selling the Saffire but I would not want to sell the Babyface unless it was to get another device with similar portability.

Any recommendations to move more towards professional recordings would be appreciated.
 
The gear is likely adequate (though, hard to really say as you haven't stated what your anticipated goal actually is). Most likely, you'd be better off sourcing a way to improve the most critical part of the entire process - you. Knowledge and experience. For example, mixing and mastering alone are two huge topics that take a long time to get good at, let alone great (assuming your not out-sourcing those steps).
 
Selta I fully agree with you. I have quite a number of years in digital recording and am constantly studying, learning and trying to improve me and fully consider myself to be the weak link in the chain.

However this was primarily spawned from a post from vangrieg talking about 'great' interfaces having a dynamic range of 120 dB plus. So I wished to tap into some interface knowledge and see if there was something in that $ 2000.00 or less range that would actually provide a quality bump over my current gear, or if for that money it would be an investment of diminishing return. Just not worth the bucks.

As a goal perhaps more openness and clarity in the stereo image.
 
'great' interfaces having a dynamic range of 120 dB plus.

Creative E-Mu 1616m should get you 118 dB or so (not A-weighted marketing crap, real dBs, if I remember correctly), and it's cheap. It requires PCIe though.

For USB there's a totally insane entry from, you won't believe it, Zoom. Its UAC interfaces claim something like 118 dB A-weighted, so they will be closer to 116 dB real, but that's still twice (!) lower noise than Axe FX, and most cards people use. And it's also cheap. And it has tiny latency. Awesome cards overall.

Both these cards can handle high input levels on their instrument inputs from even very hot passive humbuckers without problems.

There are lots of cards that are more expensive than these two and much worse.

For real high end stuff you should look for cards with real high end converters like ESS Sabre. Usually when manufacturers use something like this they will brag about it. Apogee uses them, I think. Those should get you around 120 dB if they don't screw up the analog input circuitry.

That said, this is just noise floor/dynamic range. Usually its an important characteristic because when a card is noisy it is an indicator of problems overall. But it's not a 100% dependence. For "clarity and stereo image" you'll need excellent crosstalk, THD, IMD and linearity as well, or even more importantly. Noise per se is important for analog reamping, together with input and output levels.
 
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Imo that money would be best spent on your monitors and room. What's your current setup?

My room is not yet treated. I use Sennheiser HD650 phones to rough in and Adams A7X monitors for final mix. Cross checking on other consumer platforms as well.

@vangrieg ... Wow. The white papers are impressive on the Zoom units. So do you think that UAC-2 would go head to head with the RME Babyface all specs considered? I do like the RME is bus powered but not a giant deal.
 
I will begin the research. Thanks.



My room is not yet treated. I use Sennheiser HD650 phones to rough in and Adams A7X monitors for final mix. Cross checking on other consumer platforms as well.
the adams are actually pretty damn good, id like to help decide on an interface but its outside my field of knowledge
 
So do you think that UAC-2 would go head to head with the RME Babyface all specs considered? I do like the RME is bus powered but not a giant deal.

Actually, I think it's a lot better. Babyface has noisy inputs (they say 108 dB unweighted if I'm not mistaken), that's quite poor, the Hi-Z input isn't Hi-Z at 470k only, and, in addition, its input level is only +12 dBu. This may be a fine interface for some applications, but it's no good for recording guitar.

Generally if you're looking for quality you should be cautious about USB bus-powered interfaces, by the way. It's actually not very easy to design a high quality interface with only 5V. The thing with guitar pickups, especially passive high output humbuckers is that, although the average signal level is low, the peaks may be very high, and if power voltage is insufficient, those peaks will simply clip. Those are short transients, so you might not hear distortion, but it will sound kind of harsh. A good instrument input should handle something like +20 dBu, and that requires decent power supply.
 
G'day Mwd,
IMHO microphones are the missing link to most recording setups nowadays. My 'Aha!' moment came when I bought a bunch of Neumann mics. Expensive, but in the end worth every penny because the recordings suddenly sound classy. Your other stuff is good (The RME interfcaes are excellent) If you got a U87, M149, or some such, it would probably change everything for you.
Thanks
Pauly
 
Speaking of UAC-2, by the way, it has a really weird problem with DC offset. If you record something with it and look at the result in a DAW, you'll see that the wave form is shifted above the zero line. It has no practical consequences really, as the input level this card handles is high enough, but it's just weird as hell - did they try to save money on a couple of condensers? Compared to problems other cards have, even expensive ones from famous manufacturers, this is nothing.

UAC-8 doesn't have this problem, interestingly enough.
 
Depends on how it sounds.
Thanks
Pauly

Well, if input impedance isn't high enough you're going to lose some treble and there's nothing you can do to restore it properly. If your input clips your transients there's absolutely nothing you can do to restore the original sound. You may sort of disregard noise if you don't do analog reamping (after all, nobody can hear -108 dB), but these other specs aren't suitable for high quality guitar recording. It's better to record with Axe FX directly.
 
Hi again,

The AC output impedance of the Axe FX is 600 Ohms so impedance is not an issue.
Headroom always is an issue however if managed properly (ie; not exercised in this case) shouldn't be a problem.
As far as 'bang for buck' goes - I'd still tip the best gains in this situation will be around Microphone/Room treatments. But hey - thats me!

Thanks
Pauly
 
Thanks pauly. I'm actually very happy with the vocals we are getting with the Rode K2 thru the LA 610. I don't doubt for a minute the Neuman's would be a noticeable improvement but the things I mic are definitely not my weak link. I do track the vocals at my main studio which has a booth and some treatment. I'm looking for improvement in my Axe recordings which I do at home. I run analog out to the Saffire 40 most of the time.

@vangrieg I was contemplating the UAC-8 to replace the Focusrite Saffire 40. Possibly an Apogee, or similar, to replace the Babyface as a portable unit at a later date.
 
contemplating the UAC-8 to replace the Focusrite Saffire 40. Possibly an Apogee, or similar, to replace the Babyface as a portable unit at a later date.

Hm, if you are recording this way, your recordings will only be as good as Axe FX. It doesn't make much sense to pay for a card with very low noise floor. And indeed input impedance doesn't matter in this case.

Why not go digital from Axe to your computer?
 
My cables for S/PDIF are super long and my distance to travel is about a foot. Got new shorter cables that will be here tomorrow and I'm going to start experimenting with this. The last time I did this was via Ultra about 7 or 8 years ago and it was actually recommended, at that time, to go analog out. So I didn't pursue it very long. Thank you guys for the help.
 
My vote is for a small floating floor platform for any vocal recording, room treatment, and monitoring... and as Selta said, knowledge

These are truly the things that separate good recordings from great recordings more so than 12 dB of noise floor in an interface.

Let's put it this way, if you upgraded from the Rode mic to a Neumann u87, u89, or u47, there is a good chance that the increased sensitivity of such mics will lead to exposing more of the room's acoustical flaws or even such lovely things as traffic noise from outside.

There comes to be a point where each gain in quality needs to go hand in hand with other upgrades in equipment, room treatment, monitoring etc., otherwise one upgrade in the signal chain exposes other flaws in the chain more clearly that were previously hidden.
 
My current rig will pick up a fly farting at 30 yards as it is...lol.

No.. it makes perfect sense doc. I appreciate the input. I may get the chance soon to actually try a pretty famous Neumann mic out to track a vocal.
 
I would like to step up my recording quality, if possible for $2000 or less, yet keep the chain as simple as possible. Most stuff is direct however we have 2X LA610MkII mic pres and a nice Rode K2 for vocals and several other nice mics for acoustic stuff. So I am thinking this bump will need to be in the audio interface.

I use an iMac on OSX Yosemite. I have USB and Firewire 800, no Thunderbolt. I use Logic Pro 9 and Logic X via Focusrite Saffire 40 and a RME Babyface.

I don't need a lot of channels as I primarily do 1 or 2 channels at a time. I have no trouble selling the Saffire but I would not want to sell the Babyface unless it was to get another device with similar portability.

Any recommendations to move more towards professional recordings would be appreciated.

I think you've gotten some really good advice so far. If I can weigh in here, I'd like to. Please research this stuff before you listen to me and make your own decision....

Huge post here, but I know a little something about this and wanted to share it in full. Worst case, print and read on the throne as it may make better sense. :)

I have been in the recording field for over 38 years. I have no Grammy awards nor do I have any awards at all to show you. I have an incredible business that is booked solid until early 2017 and have worked with some well-known artists for both mixing and mastering as well as producing...and I myself am a musician.

Now anyone can come on a forum and tell you that. So I'm no one special. However, I sincerely believe that in all the years I've been doing this, there is more hype than actual differences. Today, the converters used are so good, you really don't need to worry much about this. I can record something for you right now through a stock Realtek soundcard at 16/44 that will sound nearly as good as if I recorded it using my Apogee, my RME FF800 or any of the other interfaces I have around here.

You're only going to get so much out of a converter. Those that notice differences are probably coming from some really old gear or gear that had REALLY crappy converters to begin with. Even there...as I said, the right guy running the session will yield great results no matter what he uses. Too much time is spent on things like insane sampling rates and converters where people are failing miserably at other things that are MORE important.

Here are a few examples....

Rooms: This can help you or hurt you. Most of the recordings today do not allow us to hear much of the room being involved in the recording. When was the last time you heard drums like John Bonham? Most drums are close mic'd with barely any room to be heard. Reverb is a no no today and we rarely hear vocals with big room ambiance. With verbs and impulses, you have to use so little, no one knows you even have them on. I've recorded bands in the worst rooms known to man and have been as successful in them as I have the really good rooms with supposedly great acoustics. What you get from the band as well as what you know plays more of a role than any room.

Sampling rates higher than 48kHz: Huge myth in my opinion and not even needed. When you have a great interface, you shouldn't even be able to tell between 48 and 192 UNLESS you are recording instruments that are NOT sonic. For example, if you record an orchestra with mic's all over....natural sounding instruments will be a little more crisp. Distorted guitar, direct recorded guitars and anything with a sonic, driven sound, will not change drastically.

If you pass a sampling rate test to where you can tell the difference in this stuff, I urge you to take some really good blind tests when you are not the one pressing the buttons. The comparisons also have to be recorded from the ground up in those sampling rates....you don't just convert something and hear a difference. No matter what you read, no matter what some guru says...no matter how wrong or right the math is....it's a waste of hard drive space as well as computer resources in my opinion and I'll tell you why I feel that way. (But hey, if you notice a difference....and you had to listen more than 3 times to THINK you heard a difference....well, do you think anyone else will know? ;) Always do what you feel is best...but do not automatically buy into the hype.)

I have been locked at 24/48 here for years and have tested extensively to 192. There are no differences that make me say "oh man, I so gotta stay locked here!" If you think I'm out of my tree, record songs at whatever sample rate you want. 30 seconds each and make sure you record the same parts without messing up the performance to tip you off that you used a specific rate.

After you're done, label the pieces A, B, C, D etc and label A=44, B=48, C=88, D=96 etc all the way up to 192 if need be....and get a piece of paper out. Get your wife, girlfriend, son, daughter, friend etc to launch the songs at random while they write down which letters they launched so you can't see. While this is happening, you write down which you think is which. At the end of the test, tell them to launch specific letters, but not to use any order.

For example, if you want to try and tell 24/48 and 24/192 apart....tell them to launch B and K, but they are not to tell you which one they are launching. Have them add wild cards...meaning, launch one two times to see if you can even tell there was a change. I'll bet you $1 you lose and don't get them right. When you don't press the magic button and see that big sampling rate for yourself, the game changes. The only sample rate that we should hear a difference in MAY be 16/44. Anything above, with good converters, shouldn't matter. But hey...try it and see.

Now here's a kicker....in the world of everyone trying for analog sounds, why on earth would we want anything to be crispier at a higher sample rate if that were the case? We already have plenty of headroom. I just don't get it. Also, higher sample rates don't make sounds bigger like say...1/4 tape compared to 2 inch tape. You literally get a sound size increase from bigger tape. You do not get that same sound size growth in digital audio. So I'll never buy into the huge sampling rate myth. I can't hear it here enough to waste time with.

(Continued)
 
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