Closed I wish Fractal Allows Me to Overwrite All Factory IRs

[iaresee]

that's majority of IRs

You keep speaking in absolute. Maybe that's your collection. But you cannot assume it's everyone's collection.

 

[Mark Al]

You keep speaking in absolute. Maybe that's your collection. But you cannot assume it's everyone's collection.

No, I am not speaking of my collection, which has tons of mixes, nor am I arguing for absolute.

I am saying the envisioned IR selection/mixing interface could be modeled to contain only single mic IRs, which then would allow user to do their own mix. And that should solve majority of the use-cases.

For users who prefer to use IRs with mix baked in, they can still do that via the same current mechanism, and judging by how much folks hate auditioning random IRs, I'd venture that most people will much prefer select, mix and tweak via the interface instead... However, user bank will always be there for them to import their favorite IRs.

This is very much like the debate between the drastic different workflow between Kemper and Axe III(or any modeler). Do you prefer to work with random profiles that contains secrete baked-in infor, or do you prefer to work with a modeled amp in Fractal much like a traditional/real amp?

Now the same question: do you prefer to work with random mix IRs or do you prefer to work with an interface that you can select and mix your own, much like how we do it in a traditional/real studio?

 

[iaresee]

do you prefer to work with random mix IRs or do you prefer to work with an interface that you can select and mix your own, much like how we do it in a traditional/real studio?

I prefer to work with my ears because there is zero consistency between mics, mic positions and speakers in IR collections across manufacturers or capture sessions. My position on this is well documented in the other thread if you'd care to know it. A 57 at 1" cap edge is going to sound different from manufacturer to manufacturer, even for the exact same cabinet and speaker because the capture chain is more complex than "mic - position - speaker" in even the simple 1-speaker case.

The information tells you nothing about how it will sound.

You can read all about my position on this here: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...r-are-you-happy-with-factory-cabs-irs.161668/

 

[Mark Al]

I prefer to work with my ears because there is zero consistency between mics, mic positions and speakers in IR collections across manufacturers or capture sessions. My position on this is well documented in the other thread if you'd care to know it. A 57 at 1" cap edge is going to sound different from manufacturer to manufacturer, even for the exact same cabinet and speaker because the capture chain is more complex than "mic - position - speaker" in even the simple 1-speaker case.

The information tells you nothing about how it will sound.

You can read all about my position on this here: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...r-are-you-happy-with-factory-cabs-irs.161668/

Yeah, I remember your post from my other thread I totally understand that, all these inconsistencies from different venders makes auditioning IRs a completely hit or miss experience, such that it's impossible to "scale", e.g. scale up to take advantage of more IRs. That was precisely the issue I had in that thread. In this situation, your ear is your only reliable reference.

No one likes to audition IRs that sounds inconsistent from vender to vender, hit or miss, counter productive, time-wasting. Hence many folks stick with a handful of IRs, and call it a day.

But this needs NOT to be the case, as I tried to explained in the Wish List thread, the envisioned IR selection interface, will need to come up with a consistent set of IRs, which sounds consistent with our experience when moving mics around. We may or may NOT need 3-rd party IRs for this at all. Fractal can shoot a subset of these IRs, and them model/extrapolate to all other (cab, mic, position) combinations in a consistent way. Let inconsistent 3-rd party IRs reside in user banks, but the new interface itself will sounds consistently and cover a wide range of tonal spectrum.

This is basically how Helix stock cabs and Mikko did it. For Helix stock cabs (some people trash it due to ignorance), but I was able to use Helix stock cabs to match pretty much any 3-rd party IR I have right now, by mixing two (cab, mic, position) combos! I can do that consistently all the time, using my ear and some common sense of mic-ing cabs in studio, it's extremely flexible, effective and efficient to use to experiment with different sound! That's why I didn't need to bother with 3-rd party IRs with Helix.

 

[luke]

Not every product is for every user. The purchaser has to research the marketplace and make the decision which best matches their needs and desires.

I used to own a retail business and people routinely gave me unsolicited advice on how to improve. Occasionally, I would inform them there was space available across the street and perhaps they should open up shop and show me how to do it correctly.

 

[Mark Al]

Not every product is for every user. The purchaser has to research the marketplace and make the decision which best matches their needs and desires.

I used to own a retail business and people routinely gave me unsolicited advice on how to improve. Occasionally, I would inform them there was space available across the street and perhaps they should open up shop and show me how to do it correctly.

I sure hope that's not how Fractal feel/responds to user feedbacks, as such mindset towards customer feedback is intoxicating. No great success can be achieved by businesses who think with such tunnel vision.

Regardless you agree with the feedback or not, it's often from customers who care and are passionate about your product, you will need to understand why/where the feedback is from. You may have other priorities to work on and/or won't be able to implement what customers ask ATM, but you will have to understand the customers with empathy. Failed to do so will lose customers trust quickly. It's the right mindset of a successful business owner, who is ready and flexible, to (re)think and engage with reasonable feedbacks, be transparent and honest. You will gain customers trust in the end regardless you could provide what they asked.

Lastly, outside of business, wise men forsake their ego long ago, and see self no more ;-)

 

[iaresee]

I sure hope that's not how Fractal feel/responds to user feedbacks, as such mindset towards customer feedback is intoxicating. No great success can be achieved by businesses who think with such tunnel vision.

I think you'll find Fractal is very open to feedback and customer ideas often find their way into the product.

Please don't mistake a differing of opinions between us forumites with Fractal's interest in the idea, positive or otherwise.

 

[luke]

I sure hope that's not how Fractal feel/responds to user feedbacks, as such mindset towards customer feedback is intoxicating. No great success can be achieved by businesses who think with such tunnel vision.

Regardless you agree with the feedback or not, it's often from customers who care and are passionate about your product, you will need to understand why/where the feedback is from. You may have other priorities to work on and/or won't be able to implement what customers ask ATM, but you will have to understand the customers with empathy. Failed to do so will lose customers trust quickly. It's the right mindset of a successful business owner, who is ready and flexible, to (re)think and engage with reasonable feedbacks, be transparent and honest. You will gain customers trust in the end regardless you could provide what they asked.

Lastly, outside of business, wise men forsake their ego long ago, and see self no more ;-)

Out of curiosity, have you ever owned a business?

 

[Mark Al]

This is what Redwires currently offers, i.e. the same thing Helix and Mikko do, and as I suggested in this thread. Imagine, Fractal has this interface build in IR cab block or IR manager:

 

[iaresee]

This is what Redwires currently offers, i.e. the same thing Helix and Mikko do, and as I suggested in this thread. Imagine, Fractal has this interface build in IR cab block or IR manager

This style of interface has been around for a while now. GuitarRig had it way back in the early 2000s. I don't think there's any misunderstanding of what you want here.

The problem, as I see it and have stated, is this interface only works for a closed, carefully curated set of IRs, right?

What happens when you present that interface with Random IR From the Internet.syx? It falls apart. Or if you present it Mikkos Magical Cake Mesa Mix.syx? It has not equivalent in the single mic paradigm to place it in this UI. The wheels really start to come off the UI when you start using things like Taylor G6 Capture A.syx -- an IR that isn't even of a speaker cabinet at all.

Redwirez can do this because the UI only works with Redwirez IRs and they control all of the system, end-to-end. Same with Mikko. And same with the fixed set of IRs in the Helix factory set (apparently...I'm surmising this based off your posts...I've never actually touched a Helix).

 

[Mark Al]

This works for a closed set of IRs though, right? What happens when you present that interface with Random IR From the Internet.syx?

Yes sir! As I mentioned a few times above, Fractal will need to provide a "consistent" set of IRs, instead of using random internet.wav from various different venders.

Users could still import their own random internet.wav if they desire. But the modeled set of IRs in this interface will be a close set from Fractal @Admin M@. As I suggested earlier, Fractal may not need to shot IRs for each every (cab, mic, position/distance) combination, a subset of IRs would likely work, then use that subset to extrapolate/model the rest of the combinations.

In some sense, the current Axe III already does some of these modeling, e.g. the "Proximate effects", "Smoothing", "Air", etc.

 

[iaresee]

Yes sir! As I mentioned a few times above, Fractal will need to provide a "consistent" set of IRs, instead of using random internet.wav from various different venders.

Users could still import their own random internet.wav if they desire. But the modeled set of IRs in this interface will be a close set from Fractal @Admin M@. As I suggested earlier, Fractal may not need to shot IRs for each every (cab, mic, position/distance) combination, a subset of IRs would likely work, then use that subset to extrapolate/model the rest of the combinations.

But you could invert this: Fractal gives you 2048 slots to bring your own IRs, however you want, to the party. You can use those third party UIs to find the IRs you like and then save them to the unit. Why do you need Fractal to change here at all?

 

[unix-guy]

then use that subset to extrapolate/model the rest of the combinations.

If you read what ML did with Mikko, I am pretty sure he expressly does not extrapolate. That is something he called out as an issue with other similar types of interfaces. To do it right it requires shooting a lot of IRs.

 

[Mark Al]

But you could invert this: Fractal gives you 2048 slots to bring your own IRs, however you want, to the party. You can use those third party UIs to find the IRs you like and then save them to the unit. Why do you need Fractal to change here at all?

This brings back to the OP/title of this thread:
1. 2024 is barely enough to contain even a reasonable amount of (cab, mic, position/distance) combinations, e.g. (50cabs x 8mics x 10position) = 4000. Hence I had to resort to aggressive regex in my script to select a subset of them to import. And that's what I am doing right now, and it's super slow to import 2000 IRs ;-)
2. Finding the right set of IRs from 3rd party is time consuming, and not fun as we all agree. I'd imagine if Fractal implement such a interface, it'll benefit all and be dearly loved

I was not a believer for Helix stock cab for a while, and used 3rd party IRs exclusively but with 128 slots in Helix, it's impossible to mange and rotate the amount of IRs I have! So I decided to learn my way around HX cabs, in the end, I was very surprised that I could match each every one of my favorite 3-rd party IRs by mixing at most two HX stock cabs! HX stock cabs provides well over 14,000 different combinations of (cab, mic, distance), which covers a WIDE range of tones.

I don't like HX amp modeling as much as my Axe III, but HX stock cab is an excellently designed piece of interface!

 

[Mark Al]

If you read what ML did with Mikko, I am pretty sure he expressly does not extrapolate. That is something he called out as an issue with other similar types of interfaces. To do it right it requires shooting a lot of IRs.

Maybe or maybe not, the Axe III's "proximity effect" does a decent job to "extrapolate/model" what it intended

 

[iaresee]

1. 2024 is barely enough to contain even a reasonable amount of (cab, mic, position/distance) combinations, e.g. (50cabs x 8mics x 10position) = 4000. Hence I had to resort to aggressive regex in my script to select a subset of them to import. And that's what I am doing right now, and it's super slow to import 2000 IRs ;-)

You wouldn't import all of them, only the positions you've settled on using. Importing all of them wouldn't make any sense because the UI doesn't meet what you like. Record a CAB-less clip, loop it in the offboard mixing interface of your liking, and export the results of positions you like into the unit.

If you only import what you use, and not what some UI demands be present in order to find what you need, 2048 is plenty of space.

 

[yeky83]

So you wanted to overwrite factory IRs and get rid of them, and now you want there to be many more factory IRs.

 

[lqdsnddist]

For most my playing life, I owned one cabinet. Put speakers in it that I thought sounded good, and that was it. It was my cab. Amps came and went, but stuck with the cab. It worked. Biggest issue was simply getting it into some smaller cars I owned at one time or another (Honda CRX....)

I never spent time endlessly changing speakers, I didn't own a bunch of mics, didn't have a room full of cabs.... I simply stuck a mic in the usual off axis location and that was my sound, live gigs, recording, you name it. Spent way more time playing back then too

Sometimes I think we aren't really better off for choices..... Its daunting to get an Axe and not only have thousands of factory cabs, but what about all the 3rd party stuff ? It would take forever to just read up, listen to clips etc of all the stuff FAS, Mikko, OH etc have put out over the years....

And to what end ? You audition 50,000 cabs from 5 brands and then what ? You've got the greatest guitar tone ever ? Well probably not, because by then, there is probably a new firmware that changes the tone, and then you've got to start all over on cabs again.....

As the saying goes.... "don't sweat the small stuff, and its all small stuff in the end".....

Lot of truth to that really..... I've wasted hundreds of hours on small stuff, and honestly, I often just come back to the TV Mix #1 I've been using since the Axe II and it still sound great, and I enjoy playing my guitar

 

[Mark Al]

So you wanted to overwrite factory IRs and get rid of them, and now you want there to be many more factory IRs.

Without the envisioned interface we described above, I'd rather wipe out all factory IRs and fill them up with my own (as I found majority of factory IRs requires too much work before being usable for me, do you guys feel the same way...?). They will be organized by (cab, mic, position) combinations. This is basically simulating the interface we discussed above.

If Fractal implemented such an interface, it may or may not require more IRs underneath its engine, but it's largely hidden from user, and user can just experiment/enjoy them by picking a cab, picking a mic and play with mic positions and mixing them etc.

You wouldn't import all of them, only the positions you've settled on using. Importing all of them wouldn't make any sense because the UI doesn't meet what you like. Record a CAB-less clip, loop it in the offboard mixing interface of your liking, and export the results of positions you like into the unit.

If you only import what you use, and not what some UI demands be present in order to find what you need, 2048 is plenty of space.

That's what I am doing right now, with the following regex, which is selecting ONLY 1 position for 3 mics out of my RedWires IRs, I am approaching 800 IRs. '.(SM57-(Cap-(4)|CapOffAxis-(4)|CapEdge-(4)|CapEdgeOffAxis-(5)|Cone-(5)|ConeEdge-(5))|421-(Cap-(4)|CapOffAxis-(4)|CapEdge-(4)|CapEdgeOffAxis-(5)|Cone-(5)|ConeEdge-(5))|160-(Cap-(6)|CapOffAxis-(6)|CapEdge-(6)|CapEdgeOffAxis-(6)|Cone-(6)|ConeEdge-(6)))in' -v 'Base Cabinets'.

There is clearly a better way to do this, shown by Mikko, Helix and RedWirez. I think Fractal could pull this off, Axe III could greatly benefit from this approach, don't you agree?

For most my playing life, I owned one cabinet. Put speakers in it that I thought sounded good, and that was it. It was my cab. Amps came and went, but stuck with the cab. It worked. Biggest issue was simply getting it into some smaller cars I owned at one time or another (Honda CRX....)

I never spent time endlessly changing speakers, I didn't own a bunch of mics, didn't have a room full of cabs.... I simply stuck a mic in the usual off axis location and that was my sound, live gigs, recording, you name it. Spent way more time playing back then too

Sometimes I think we aren't really better off for choices..... Its daunting to get an Axe and not only have thousands of factory cabs, but what about all the 3rd party stuff ? It would take forever to just read up, listen to clips etc of all the stuff FAS, Mikko, OH etc have put out over the years....

And to what end ? You audition 50,000 cabs from 5 brands and then what ? You've got the greatest guitar tone ever ? Well probably not, because by then, there is probably a new firmware that changes the tone, and then you've got to start all over on cabs again.....

As the saying goes.... "don't sweat the small stuff, and its all small stuff in the end".....

Lot of truth to that really..... I've wasted hundreds of hours on small stuff, and honestly, I often just come back to the TV Mix #1 I've been using since the Axe II and it still sound great, and I enjoy playing my guitar

Certainly, in the physical world we are greatly limited, and in ancient times we were even more grossly/primitively limited, but those are not the benchmark/standard of what we could have achieved right now in modern technology, right? I understand some people may not need all those combinations, partially it's such a hassle and mission impossible currently to even imagine managing them manually. Once they are implemented and hidden under a slick interface, I am sure all will appreciate the sheer power and flexibility of it, e.g. you will find a variety of excellent tones, all sounds good but different, which will fuel and inspire your creativity.

Fundamentally, a good tone is a good tone because it inspires you to play and create. Now tonal variety, provided they are easy/effortless to dial in, will inspire you to do exactly that.

 

[iaresee]

TV Mix #1

God tier mix, right there.