I want to run FOH vocal effects using the Axe Fx.

ACE_IT_UP

Member
Hey there, I want to use my Axe Fx guitar processor to run vocal effects in a live situation.

I have been using the Axe Fx for vocal delays and reverb effects by plugging my mic cord into a Low Z / High Z adapter much like this, then plugging that into the input of my Axe. I then go from the Axe out into a DI rack, into our PA.

This seems to work great for practice and I'm wondering now if this can be applied live.

I understand messing with the house vocal settings can be a tricky situation. I've been told that I may need a mic pre before the axe to get my levels right and that it's best to get an Aux Send/Return from the board, however when asking the few local engineers around here if they had one, the answer has always been "no". So I want to defeat that route and just go direct.

If this can be done, HOW should it be done. Specifically, what gear should I be looking to invest in to make the process as simple and efficient as possible?

Thanks!
 
You might PM MetalSlab... he runs his vocals through his Axe but he also has the TC helicon processor in front of it. Look here and see what he's got going on.
 
What types of processing blocks are you using, and what is the general intent of your outcome using the AxeFx? Are you using the AFX in "unconventional" ways to process vocals for very radical effects, or are you generally looking to sweeten your vocals with the usual suspects, echo, reverb, chorus/detune, etc., and simply want to have control over stuff like delay times and intensity of the effects in your mix?

There are some very simple ways to do this, and also some very convoluted complex ways of doing this which really maximize the usage of the AFX as a processor (compression, de-essing, EQ, etc., along with echo/reverb).

Also, you have to keep in mind that most FOH sound techs HATE getting "pre-mixed" effects from a vocal mic coming down the chain into their mixing board, and much of the time this is justified. Reason being that what might be a perfect blend for you in your stage mix might just be completely wrong, over-the-top, when applied to the FOH mix - or vice versa - completely inadequate (but usually not). In order for the FOH tech to "hate you less", you should split out the "time domain" effects (echo & reverb) into a totally separate feed to the FOH so the house tech can blend the effects as he sees fit - and this can be a huge leap of faith. Once you are on stage, there is nothing forcing the FOH tech to even USE your wet effects feed (unless your best friend roadie is a 300 lb biker looking dude who stands next to the mixing board for your set with a menacing look on his face). He may ditch your "wet" feed and do whatever he wants anyway. He'll already hate you for forcing him to eat up 2 channels for your voice (dry mic, wet effects) which is out of the ordinary....but he'll hate you less than if you provided a 100% dry/wet blend that he is stuck with and cannot/doesn't want to work with. Do you follow?

Another scenario is that you are using the AFX for 100% wet processing (comp/lim/EQ, etc.) as well as more drastic things like distortion, "megaphone/telephone" effects, pitch-shifted harmonies, etc. In this case, the FOH tech has no real choice, but in the event of a vocal mic feedback war, will turn your mic down in your stage monitor mix, and if it is really a bad problem, you'll be lost in the FOH mix to boot. Most house sound techs have their systems tweaked based on repetition and the use of known-commodities so that they may maximize the volume of vocal stage wedges, etc., and once they have their system dialed in for "generic vocalist using Shure SM58", the don't like to move away from that which they feel works well.

Long story short - you really, really have to be careful and know what you're doing here, especially when interfacing with rental or venue-provided PA systems and techs. If you don't do this right, your efforts will go for naught. The answer: control as much as you can - own your own PA and use it for most of your gigs, or work with the same sound company as much as possible, and if you find a good FOH mixer, use him for your gigs where you don't control the PA system, so that someone with the tech chops can go to bat for you with the house techs/mixer.

Or...buy the Behringer Xenyx 1204USB (+/- $160). It has enough features where you can do simple or very creative routing with the AFX so you can experiment with a few different methods depending on your needs.
 
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You might PM MetalSlab... he runs his vocals through his Axe but he also has the TC helicon processor in front of it. Look here and see what he's got going on.

This is an extremely elegant and pro design solution that MetalSlab has come up with. First class and no compromises. It demonstrates the extreme versatility of the AxeFx as it can accommodate so many different types of input/output sources and routing schemes. Expert level stuff here.
 
I'd also say that if you can rehearse with (or have access to extended use of) a fairly decent PA system (full range cabinets with strong subwoofers) that can handle EVERYTHING in the mix (all instruments, vocals and drums), this is the best way to get the FX levels balanced and test for tone/feedback issues.

If presented to a house/rental sound tech in a reasonable manner, there is no reason to believe sending pre-mixed vocal FX thru a single XLR cable to the PA would be a big deal (regardless of what I wrote before). If done properly, the only thing might be the FOH mixer asking for less or more FX blend in relation to the dry vocal.

This is done successfully all the time with quality vocal pedals. But also, I've seen just as many vocal mixes ruined by poor programming and overly aggressive processed wet FX levels via these pedals. With the AFX, I'd still recommend the use of a proper mic preamp or mini mixer with XLR mic input channels before the AFX input.

One other tip: research the use of the DUCKING feature in the reverb & echo/delay block if you aren't familiar with this. It helps to keep the echo/verb from "stepping on" your vocal in order to retain intelligibility, but "fills in" those effects in the spaces between vocal phrases. Gives a much more "pro" touch to the sound.
 
One other tip: research the use of the DUCKING feature in the reverb & echo/delay block if you aren't familiar with this. It helps to keep the echo/verb from "stepping on" your vocal in order to retain intelligibility, but "fills in" those effects in the spaces between vocal phrases. Gives a much more "pro" touch to the sound.

This is a great use of Ducking and it work great for the guitars as well. I use it in some of my presets that call for real heavy or wet delay.
 
Hi mate!

That's a killer rig you have there. You will probably have a few more options available that I do - as you haven't skimped on overall rack size like I have.

To be honest, if what you are doing in practice is working for you, try it out on a FOH to see how you and the sound tech feel about it. I can't see why it wouldn't work, but I would think that adding in a separate dry vocal signal along with the wet would definitely be preferred (let the tech deal with the fx mix).

I had a look at jimfist and the guys above and they are spot on with advice so far.


I am just going to think 'out aloud' here for a sec as I have to rush off soon. Forgive me if it sounds like rambling but I can clear things up later if you need:

- Firstly, it isn't absolutely necessary if you are happy with just a DI I suppose, but I would always recommend an actual mic pre before the Axe. I use a stereo TC Helicon stompbox (actually also a preamp in disguise), which splits the dry and wet lines and also gives me more outboard processing options if I ever need them, but you can get some really nice rack preamps as well. It's up to you, but if you want a quality sound, a pre will condition the signal a bit better than a basic DI plug. You may hear the difference with a preamp later if you run a patch with lots of fx or compression. Also, I may have misread your post, but I would never use the main input on the Axe for vox, as it has some kind of secret algorithms going on behind the scenes - designed for guitar signal / loading. I use the rear inputs for vox and other instruments.

- I wouldn't rely on getting a send from the board every time. Most techs get a bit jumpy with that sort of thing. In fact, you should consult them before gigs if possible, discuss options and run mix rehearsals, because I know for a fact that most of them hate the idea of anything slightly 'new' or challenging. Bear in mind that they are all only used to very basic vocal setups. This will be the biggest hurdle. The thing with my setup is that it can handle rehearsals and even small venues on it's own so I sometimes get away with using the Axe as the mixer for guitars / vocals. It's pretty crude but I use the level knobs on the front of the unit. My PA speakers will take additional inputs (keys, bass, drums, etc) and have mixers on the back (can be controlled remotely as well) - or we sometimes use a small outboard mixer. I wouldn't recommend anything like this until you get REALLY comfortable with your rig and how it handles the mix. You would need suitable FRFR / PA speakers to do this as well of course.

- you will obviously need to incorporate the vocal / fx signal into all of your guitar patches. Be aware that having complex routings for both the guitar/s and vox can easily max out the AxeFx processing power (visible in Axe Edit). This was one of the reasons I shifted some of my vocal fx from my patches to the outboard unit.

- in your vocal routing in the presets, you can do crazy things like assign the mix block to an expression pedal and actually blend in vocal fx like delay, reverb, drive, time-based etc, in real-time. Spend some time experimenting! The only issue with this is it takes the wet/dry vocal mix somewhat away from the tech so you will want to do some test runs to get your levels in the mix. It all depends on exactly what you want to achieve.

- as above, I would aim to send at least a dry signal on top of the wet mix so that the tech can adjust the reverb levels, etc, if needed. There is nothing worse than too much reverb and fx on vox - especially when it sounds great on stage but awful from back of the venue.

Ummm, it's been a while since I had my rig up and running actually so let me have a proper think about it and hopefully get back to you with some clearer options.

Cheers
 
This is an extremely elegant and pro design solution that MetalSlab has come up with. First class and no compromises. It demonstrates the extreme versatility of the AxeFx as it can accommodate so many different types of input/output sources and routing schemes. Expert level stuff here.

Wow, thanks for the super kind words. I am no rig expert; I just tried to come up with the most compact and efficient design possible for how I employ the unit, but I am really humbled by your compliment.
 
Wow, this is exactly the stuff I needed to hear! Great information here I couldn't find anywhere else, Thanks! :)

So is it possible to send a signal out of the Axe FX where Output 2 Left is dry vocals and Right is wet vocals?
 
Mind if I chime in? I use the Axe for vocals and guitar. I highly recommend getting yourself a Mic Pre. It made a massive difference to my vocal sound quality. I got myself an ART Tube MP Studio V3 Mic Pre - Pre ART Pro Audio. It is very affordable and compact. It lives on my pedal board with no problems.

I run my vocals effects chain in every preset which has a Gate/Expander, Reverb and sometimes Multi Delay (Plex Detune sounds awesome!!!). And of course sometimes Vocoder. I haven't had too much trouble hitting the ceiling of the CPU but because I play mostly Acoustic I don't tend to make much use of the Amp blocks. You could even use the Pitch block set to auto tune (although I don't) but you certainly could if you felt you needed it here and there.

I think using the Axe Fx to process your vocals is a great way to get more out of an already amazing unit and make your vocals stand well out from the norm.

Here's a crazy tip. I use the Synth block to generate drone notes that I feed into my Rocktron Banshee Talkbox from the Fx Send. Then my mic signal goes back into the Fx Return (via my ART Pre amp) and whammo go nuts with some crazy delays etc for some epic drone throat singing type sounds.

I do this live and it blows people away.

Also don't forget to set your Input 2 to mono (you probably already do) otherwise your vocal will only come out one side L or R.

Pre ART Pro Audio
 
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Wow, thanks for the super kind words. I am no rig expert; I just tried to come up with the most compact and efficient design possible for how I employ the unit, but I am really humbled by your compliment.

Well, IMO you did a great job! Just wrapping your mind around the routing options and flexibility concerns is one huge hurdle, but then to be able to implement that flexibility in a way that connects simply and quickly and actually WORKS in a nice, neat package...that's just great stuff. If I were a solo vocalist/instrumentalist I'd be all over this setup.
 
Mind if I chime in? I use the Axe for vocals and guitar. I highly recommend getting yourself a Mic Pre. It made a massive difference to my vocal sound quality. I got myself an ART Tube MP Studio V3 Mic Pre - Pre ART Pro Audio. It is very affordable and compact. It lives on my pedal board with no problems.

I run my vocals effects chain in every preset which has a Gate/Expander, Reverb and sometimes Multi Delay (Plex Detune sounds awesome!!!). And of course sometimes Vocoder. I haven't had too much trouble hitting the ceiling of the CPU but because I play mostly Acoustic I don't tend to make much use of the Amp blocks. You could even use the Pitch block set to auto tune (although I don't) but you certainly could if you felt you needed it here and there.

I think using the Axe Fx to process your vocals is a great way to get more out of an already amazing unit and make your vocals stand well out from the norm.

Here's a crazy tip. I use the Synth block to generate drone notes that I feed into my Rocktron Banshee Talkbox from the Fx Send. Then my mic signal goes back into the Fx Return (via my ART Pre amp) and whammo go nuts with some crazy delays etc for some epic drone throat singing type sounds.

I do this live and it blows people away.

Also don't forget to set your Input 2 to mono (you probably already do) otherwise your vocal will only come out one side L or R.

Pre ART Pro Audio

This is all great stuff here. As was posted to MetalSlab, the AFX is a KILLER unit for your type of usage. You can do SOOO MUCH with it, and it really sparks the creative animal in us all.

The one thing that ACE has to mainly be concerned with is interfacing and "playing nice" with other sound techs who may not be so thrilled to be forced to step outside the box just a little. As many have suggested, a proper mic preamp of some kind is going to make a difference to start with. After that, it's a crash course on routing within the AFX, and utilizing the various FX blocks at your disposal. The key step after all of the routing is getting the "blends" right, and sending the FOH mixer something he can be happy with (and won't FIGHT with). No way around it IMO that full blown rehearsal with full PA system is the quickest way to get this right.

So is it possible to send a signal out of the Axe FX where Output 2 Left is dry vocals and Right is wet vocals?

Yes, absolutely. You would need to simply set up a parallel signal path to the "dry" vocal (note: dry in the sense that it applies to echo, reverb. You can still have other effect "processors" such as compression, de-essing, and EQ on the "dry" signal path, obviously. Depending on the mic pre you choose, some of these EQ/compression features will be part of the mic pre, saving you blocks and cpu usage in the AFX) which would have only the effected "wet" effects (usually, but not always, with their mix set at 100%). Put a Volume/Pan at the end of the "dry" chain panned Right, and another Vol/Pan at the end of the "wet" chain panned Left. (Or - and I'm not sure about this - you might be able to use the Output Mixer to do the same.)
 
Personally, I would run the mic into something simple like an FMR Audio RNP, then right into the Axe-Fx line input. This is a great combination, and the secret weapon of many producers.
 
Personally, I would run the mic into something simple like an FMR Audio RNP, then right into the Axe-Fx line input. This is a great combination, and the secret weapon of many producers.

+1 FMR makes great stuff! I've got a RNC compressor and love it!
 
Anybody?.. I'm hoping to find a rack mount pre-amp that will serve well in a studio and live environment, for this very application.
 
There are loads of rack-mounted mic pres / channel strips on the market ACE

Check out dbx 286A or perhaps something like a second-hand Focusrite Trackmaster
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