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I spent 3 years trying to like the delays in this box

funny_polymath

Fractal Fanatic
I think the feedback and mix tapers are just different than what you're used to. For example, don't be scared if you need to set a control to 75% to make it sound like a Boss pedal does at 50%.

Other than that, I can't really think of any reason why it wouldn't "sound good". Assuming you have drive, EQ, and modulation turned off then the delay is just outputting an exact copy of the input delayed by some amount and multiplied by some level. Feedback multiplies the output by some constant and adds it back to the input.

It is pretty straightforward. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to make it sound identical to other digital delays once you understand how the controls work.
This is my experience: forget the numbers and just twiddle with abandon - and I get close, but it still isn't nearly as much fun as my old PCM-42 or my TC Electronics D-TWO. As to multitaps - why should I have to? In other words, a simple, single-tap delay line in this day and age, in this incredible box, SHOULD be able to accomplish these nuances. Additionall, of course, we have the spillover issue, which sucks, plain and simple. It is odd that the box seems weakest at regular delay and looper - the two fx I like most! As to using the FX loop - well, I've got a PCM-70 in my fx loop, and I need some patches with delay before that, and some with it after - which means more than one fx loop (which would be a great idea). Additionally, some of us are just old and rancid and we don't want to carry big racks anymore. If the Axe-FX's Delay and Looper function was better, with more 'real' spilover, and if it could just copy my PCM-70's flanged multiap delay sound, I'd only need it and my Matrix in the rack and nothing else!
 

steadystate

Fractal Fanatic
why not just use the 10 tap delay? control exactly how many repeats you have and their relative levels... *scratches head* ...
That's what I use in those situations where I cant quite get the feedback taper I want... *scratches nuts" :)
 

steadystate

Fractal Fanatic
Just a thought, make sure you aren't running a noise gate after the delay. I scratched my head for a while once because of that.
Actually, a carefully adjusted downward expander after the delay might acutally help. I'd have to try it to see if it's practical.
 

AdamCook

Power User
This is my experience: forget the numbers and just twiddle with abandon - and I get close, but it still isn't nearly as much fun as my old PCM-42 or my TC Electronics D-TWO.
I agree with your point regarding room for improvement in how spill-over is handled.

However, "not as much fun" isn't really a complaint that we can work with. Feedback is feedback, mix is mix. There's no real difference from one unit to another except for taper.
 

Admin M@

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
Taper is just dynamics. Compansion at one or more points inside a delay box is not too unusual, but its absence never seems to diminish my love of Axe-Fx delays.

In fact, quite the opposite: I'd rather be in control.
I also like building delays that have never been build before, like Infinite Smart Echoes (sidechain compressor in the feedback loop), DynaDucks (modifiers on duck params), cool long ADSR feedback control, etc etc etc.
Maybe someday the Axe-Fx envelope will have a sidechain input... then watch out!

OP, I wonder if you might share some recordings of the kinds of sounds you're trying to create without success. It's just that I simply can't imagine NOT having fun and getting great musical results with Axe-Fx delays.
 
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Dutch

Fractal Fanatic
Are you guys playing solo performances live?... Is there anyone coughing while you perform this performance and does he get expelled from the room for doing so? Are you recording multimillion dollar records?... Designed for SACD and electrostat playback?

Who is going to hear that in the din of a band performance (which I believe you all partake in)? Or in a dense mp3 mix? When I'm playing I'm happy if I can find any delays in the noise.


Aren't you guys splitting hairs here?

For the couple of times the above applies and it actually makes a difference, go use the best you can get. For the rest... make do with the excellent delays already available.



Gideon and Mark, good luck with those itches.
 

funny_polymath

Fractal Fanatic
I agree with your point regarding room for improvement in how spill-over is handled.

However, "not as much fun" isn't really a complaint that we can work with. Feedback is feedback, mix is mix. There's no real difference from one unit to another except for taper.
Fair enough. My biggest gripe is by far the spillover. I will have to boot up my D-two and do a point by point comparison for myself. I can't remember exactly, but there were some other diffs. Thanks Adam, for everything, esp. the exciting Looper news...
 

funny_polymath

Fractal Fanatic
Are you guys playing solo performances live?... Is there anyone coughing while you perform this performance and does he get expelled from the room for doing so? Are you recording multimillion dollar records?... Designed for SACD and electrostat playback?

Who is going to hear that in the din of a band performance (which I believe you all partake in)? Or in a dense mp3 mix? When I'm playing I'm happy if I can find any delays in the noise.


Aren't you guys splitting hairs here?

For the couple of times the above applies and it actually makes a difference, go use the best you can get. For the rest... make do with the excellent delays already available.



Gideon and Mark, good luck with those itches.
MANY of us do solo performances live. In addition, not all of us are playing metal, hi-gain stuff etc. I mostly record VERY quiet music, some piano, some voice, some guitar, some viola, some percussion, all through my Axe-FX (I have a mixer in front of my signal path, feeding to the Axe when I play). In my world, these issues are quite audible.

Try to exapand your horizons. We've got jazzers, rockers, and experimental types like me here.
 

Dutch

Fractal Fanatic
In that case. I stand corrected.

Maybe you can get Cliff to work on it. It's been done before.
 

Smilzo

Power User
Actually, a carefully adjusted downward expander after the delay might acutally help. I'd have to try it to see if it's practical.
I never complained about axefx delay, but I like to envelope-controll the input level, so that first repeat is less pronounced. I like also to add some trapezoidal modulation. I like also to add a drive before delay. Emulate analog delay. I have a standard, I am happy with delay quality but it take some times. ;)
 

Thomas Larsson

Experienced
And I've finally given up.

I love this unit. It does so many things so so well. Even if it didn't even have delays, I would still own it.

But there's no telling how many hours I've spent staring into the green light trying to dial in a delay sound I don't hate, wondering why it doesn't sound good.

I've finally realized why. It's the Mix control.

When I put the delay block before the amp, the first repeat is always ridiculously loud no matter how low the mix control is. It doesn't matter where I set the feedback. Makes it totally unusable. No matter where I have the mix, the first repeat always ends up being quite loud with the rest being unheard. I have tried tons of settings and nothing works.

When the delay is after the amp, it seems that I only get strong repeats on very high settings. And once I get the repeats how I want them, it turns out I have set the mix to like 70% and my repeats are louder than my signal. So this placement is even more unusable than the other one.

This isn't a "help me" thread. I've made dozens of those in the past. I guess I just hate the way this unit's delay mix is set.
I bet you would have the same behavear with a "real" delay if you compare before and after the preamp.
There is nothing special with the mix control on the axe. It works as any mix control.
 

yek

Moderator
Moderator
I've tried parallel. Doesn't make any difference. The end effect is the same for me.
Sorry but, based on your problem description, you didn't set things as they should.
Try again. Put the delay in a parallel row, Mix fixed at 100%.
Now use Level to set the desired delay level. Use Feedback to set the desired amount of trails. Use Time for speed.
This way it's no different than using a regular Boss pedal.

And set Bypass Mode to Mute In to avoid level changes when bypassig the pedal.
 

dk_ace

Experienced
I've had my Axe-FX for years, back since the original wait list days. I have fought the delays too for just the reason the OP describes. The delays have been fine for me for most of my normal patches, but they become problematic when I want to do something really ambient. The first repeat's volume in relation to the other repeats has been the problem for me. I'm on a Standard, so no 10 tap or delay diffusion options are available to me. It's really frustrating as the Axe does so much so well and this is a seemingly simple request.

I've never had this problem with any of my previous delay units (M13, Nova Delay, DD20, DL4, SMMH, Magicstomp, etc). The workaround that has been working the best for me is running the delay in parallel with a compressor in series. It's really finicky, but I've managed to get some better results that way.

It isn't a deal killer as I don't spend a great deal of time on these kinds of sounds live and I've been able to come up with things that work well enough, but it certainly leaves a lot to be desired.

D
 

henryrobinett

Fractal Fanatic
I don't get it. But there's a lot I don't get. Maybe it's because I've almost never used a delay stomp box. I've only ever used rack units. Mainly Roland SDE-1000 and Lexicon units like PCM91, 81, MPX-550 and a ton of software plugins for post recording/mixing. I've never had problems setting the AxeFx up to get the right amount of repeats and the correct level for the first repeat. Maybe I'm just more used to setting up delays or I'm just not discerning enough! The only thing I miss is the hyper modulation effects of the Roland rack delays.
 

bkrumme

Experienced
Sorry but, based on your problem description, you didn't set things as they should.
Try again. Put the delay in a parallel row, Mix fixed at 100%.
Now use Level to set the desired delay level. Use Feedback to set the desired amount of trails. Use Time for speed.
This way it's no different than using a regular Boss pedal.

And set Bypass Mode to Mute In to avoid level changes when bypassig the pedal.
This method is what solved delay issues for me. **INCLUDING** spillover.
 

steadystate

Fractal Fanatic
I don't think it's a matter of the Axe's feedback taper being any better or worse than any other unit...just different. If, in a particular instance for a particular song, I can't get what I need, I use a tap delay block. The sound quality is first class.
 

dk_ace

Experienced
I don't get it. But there's a lot I don't get. Maybe it's because I've almost never used a delay stomp box. I've only ever used rack units. Mainly Roland SDE-1000 and Lexicon units like PCM91, 81, MPX-550 and a ton of software plugins for post recording/mixing. I've never had problems setting the AxeFx up to get the right amount of repeats and the correct level for the first repeat. Maybe I'm just more used to setting up delays or I'm just not discerning enough! The only thing I miss is the hyper modulation effects of the Roland rack delays.
Well the problem is probably the bit where you said "the correct level for the first repeat." Short of the multitap delay block, it isn't adjustable. So if you've never had a problem with it, then you just like the default level of the first repeat in the Axe-FX delay block. For most things, I do too. It is problematic for some sounds though. I like it for the patches I spend most of my time with, but occasionally the volume of the first repeat is far too hot for the sound/feel I'm going for.

I need to work with the Multidelay block more. It may do what I need better. The compressor is working okay. I mainly wanted the compressor to control the runaway feedback though. I like how some pedals can go into feedback but keep it under control so that it doesn't overtake your signal completely. The Axe compressor in series with the delay has helped me mimic that.

D
 

henryrobinett

Fractal Fanatic
No, I never use the default. I ALWAYS set my delays on all parameters. I use the Multi DElay a lot. more than the regular one.
 
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