• We would like to remind our members that this is a privately owned, run and supported forum. You are here at the invitation and discretion of the owners. As such, rules and standards of conduct will be applied that help keep this forum functioning as the owners desire. These include, but are not limited to, removing content and even access to the forum.

    Please give yourself a refresher on the forum rules you agreed to follow when you signed up.

I need help. Going nuts. Share your ideas.

yek

Moderator
Moderator
In rig B I still use Out1 to go direct to the house PA, if there's a PA. Not micing the cab.

I don't use rigs A and B together (although it's the best of both worlds). I'm accustomed to either.

I use rig B to dial in my presets initially.
To translate them to FR, I use a single IR in most of my presets. Plus the PEQ when playing live through FR on stage.

I don't use different presets for different guitars. Just like I wouldn't switch traditional amps/cabs when switching guitars.

There are various methods though to accomodate for different guitars. Like adjusting Amp Gain (Global), adjusting Level on the IN/GTE page through a global block, using scenes, etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cem

Cem

Experienced
In rig B I still use Out1 to go direct to the house PA, if there's a PA. Not micing the cab.

I don't use rigs A and B together (although it's the best of both worlds). I'm accustomed to either.

I use rig B to dial in my presets initially.
To translate them to FR, I use a single IR in most of my presets. Plus the PEQ when playing live through FR on stage.

I don't use different presets for different guitars. Just like I wouldn't switch traditional amps/cabs when switching guitars.

There are various methods though to accomodate for different guitars. Like adjusting Amp Gain (Global), adjusting Level on the IN/GTE page through a global block, using scenes, etc.
Of course you don't change the amp, but you tweak the knobs. Don't you? :) Just play the same? :eek: If they are very different guitars, it wouldn't work i guess.

And I really had so difficult times while trying to set presets with my HS50ms. Did someone use them as main patch creating 'monitors'?

I really have no time to go to gig with the laptop and start a preset there, see how it sounds. Generally i get 10-15 mins for both, electric guitars instage and foh, plus Acoustic guitar direct to PA. It's hard times :(
 

Cem

Experienced
Additional question: how is this done? Sending output 2 to a Regular guitar Amp's Fx return ( Poweramp And Cabinet disabled ), Sending output 1 to FoH ( poweramp and Cabinet Enabled)

I mean, I've read the manual's instructions about using it so with the Effect loop involved but, Putting the Cab block As the LAST in the chain wouldn't change the tone?

Drives wahs comps --> Amp --> Modulations etc --> Fx Loop --> Cab

Is this soundwise same with the regular

Drives wahs comps --> Amp --> Cab --> Modulations etc ?
 
Last edited:

yek

Moderator
Moderator
Yes, it's the same.

If power amp simulation can maintain ON for both signals, it's as simple as putting FXL before the Cab block, at the end.
That's what I do. Requires a neutral power amp or one that doesn't color the tone too much.

If power amp simulation differs per signal it's more complicated.
You'll need two signal chains where one has an Amp block with, and the other without power amp simulation (by setting SAG to OFF). This is covered in the manual.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cem

Cem

Experienced
Yes, it's the same.

If power amp simulation can maintain ON for both signals, it's as simple as putting FXL before the Cab block, at the end.
That's what I do. Requires a neutral power amp or one that doesn't color the tone too much.

If power amp simulation differs per signal it's more complicated.
You'll need two signal chains where one has an Amp block with, and the other without power amp simulation (by setting SAG to OFF). This is covered in the manual.
Yes, I've read about ( Sag to Off ) it.

So it wouldn't work ( using the amp as the stage monitor) for example wanting to run the Axe fx into a good tube amp's fx return ( Let's say a twin reverb, or a fender deville, sometimes venues have those as their amp ). Since it would color the tone, right? ( Or any other tube amp actually.)
 

warlockII

Experienced
CEM, the only way I've been happy w/ my live patches is to do the following:
1. Use the best full range speakers you can get your hand on (go to a friends/studio if you need to)
2. Make the patches at gig volume
3. Have a backing track that's as close to your situation as possible to see which frequencies will disappear and which will stand out starkly.
4. Don't tweak for an hour or more...your ears will be fatigued...I actually take a break after 15 minutes or so.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cem

levipeto

Fractal Fanatic
Your Mackie PA monitor is the problem!! I had owned a Mackie SRM450 v1 and used it with Axe II. Well I wanted too, but it sounded like crap. [it sounded even worse with Line6 POD].

My Mackie 642 Studio Monitors died and I got Yamaha HS80Ms for the studio [with M-Audio Sub]

I sold the Mackie SRM450 and bought a pair of Atomic powered CLRs.

CLRs are so flat and clear, that they actually replaced my Yamahas in the studio as well.
 

Cem

Experienced
CEM, the only way I've been happy w/ my live patches is to do the following:
1. Use the best full range speakers you can get your hand on (go to a friends/studio if you need to)
2. Make the patches at gig volume
3. Have a backing track that's as close to your situation as possible to see which frequencies will disappear and which will stand out starkly.
4. Don't tweak for an hour or more...your ears will be fatigued...I actually take a break after 15 minutes or so.

So definitely not in HS50ms?

I need something that can keep up with a drum volumevise I guess? In order to beat the fletcher-munson?
 

yek

Moderator
Moderator
Fletcher Munson cannot be beaten by volume. I learnt that lesson with my first modeller ever, the Line 6 Ax2.
Keeping increasing the volume doesn't help. Fletcher Munson is about eq-ing, not volume..

"Depends on the amp": enabled power amp simulation will work through some amps (fx return), and won't sound well through others. I can't tell on forehand how it turns out.
 

Cem

Experienced
Fletcher Munson cannot be beaten by volume. I learnt that lesson with my first modeller ever, the Line 6 Ax2.
Keeping increasing the volume doesn't help. Fletcher Munson is about eq-ing, not volume..

"Depends on the amp": enabled power amp simulation will work through some amps (fx return), and won't sound well through others. I can't tell on forehand how it turns out.
Can you "trick" us(mostly me) about it a lil bit? :)
 

zenaxe

Fractal Fanatic
Fortunately the Axe-Fx was designed to give you the best of both worlds. You can use the FX Loop and Output 2 to a power amp and conventional guitar cab while routing the fully processed tone with IR to the FOH. See the manual for full details. Rather than using your Mark V you can use a lightweight solid-state power amp and any of the new, lightweight guitar cabs that use Neodymium speakers. This gives you the classic far field amp tone for yourself in a lightweight package and the polished sound for the FOH direct from Output 1.
THIS.

I do not understand why people still do not seem to understand the above given how long high quality modelers have been around.

For traditional rig performance, run the unit like a traditional rig: Processor->amp->guitar cab and use a cab emulated output to FOH. Instant traditional in the room tone. Who'd a thunk it? For bonus points, shoot an IR of the exact cab you use for the FOH simulation. If you run close miced IRs through an FRFR it will always sound like a close miced cab regardless of how good your monitor system is. If you are not cool with that type of rig do not use that type of rig. Use a power amp and guitar cab rig. Thankfully the AxeFx sounds so good you do not even need a tube power amp.

It's so awesome that the Fractal products can do this with the out 1/2 setup. In the past if you were running a rig like this you ended up with some horrible preamp "cab emulator" line out for the FOH or recording if you didn't want to mic your cab. With the AF you can get deeply satisfying in the room sound plus completely accurate FOH AND use a lightweight low maintenance SS power amp.

It seems like everyone who complains about "in the room" sound approaches the problem a**-backwards.
 

GM Arts

Power User
I think most people understand well the difference between close-mic'd tone and far-field tone. IMHO the debate is around how to preserve what the player perceives as good guitar tone and mix it effectively with other band instruments and vocals.

Some here propose strongly that a close mic'd cab IS the tone that sound mixers use to achieve a good guitar tone in a mix, and that guitar players need to get over their traditional stage tones and get used to what the audience hears.

While others, including me, would like to give sound mixers the stage tone I like and hear, while still giving them the freedom to shape the tone into a band mix.
 

Talus

Inspired
what you are experiencing is being so married to the feel/vibe of the amp in the room/amp on stage experience. it's not about sound or tone....because i will almost guarantee you that your axe will sound far better foh and to your audience than the amp or axe + amp will. it's all about accepting and embracing that you are hearing what everyone else hears, and that is what is important. if you're waiting to vibe with it on stage like a cranked amp, it will never happen like that, it's not the same....
There's just no truth behind this statement unless you're the type of person who doesn't know how to EQ their amp for live use. At best, you'll get a FoH sound equal to that of a real amp and a much cleaner and more accurate stage sound... But better? No.

Personally I still struggle with the Axe for live use. Partly I miss the sound of a real amp on stage, but the real issue for me is that I cannot get it to sound as good as my Mark V does FoH. Which has been my real struggle. I know what my amp sounds like FoH. I usually stand next to the sound booth during sound checks and EQ my amp based upon what I hear from there. More often than not other bands on the bill will use it over whatever crappy amp the venue has on backline. There was one venue which required us to have our cabs mic'd in an isolated room so I used my CLR as a monitor and it sounded absolutely huge. For whatever reason I've yet to be able to get a sound anywhere near as good with the Axe. I'm absolutely positive it's possible and I know it's something I'm doing/not doing, but it's got me baffled. Ironically when it comes to recording, the Mark V sounds terrible and the Axe reigns supreme.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cem

Cem

Experienced
There's just no truth behind this statement unless you're the type of person who doesn't know how to EQ their amp for live use. At best, you'll get a FoH sound equal to that of a real amp and a much cleaner and more accurate stage sound... But better? No.

Personally I still struggle with the Axe for live use. Partly I miss the sound of a real amp on stage, but the real issue for me is that I cannot get it to sound as good as my Mark V does FoH. Which has been my real struggle. I know what my amp sounds like FoH. I usually stand next to the sound booth during sound checks and EQ my amp based upon what I hear from there. More often than not other bands on the bill will use it over whatever crappy amp the venue has on backline. There was one venue which required us to have our cabs mic'd in an isolated room so I used my CLR as a monitor and it sounded absolutely huge. For whatever reason I've yet to be able to get a sound anywhere near as good with the Axe. I'm absolutely positive it's possible and I know it's something I'm doing/not doing, but it's got me baffled. Ironically when it comes to recording, the Mark V sounds terrible and the Axe reigns supreme.
I think I totally agree with you. But things may change with a CLR totally on stage with axe. But there is no point for me still, If carry that 45 lbs monitor to plane. I carry my combo :)
 

BigD1977

Power User
Right. The Axe sounds like the finished product. It sounds the way a guitar in a song on the radio or a CD sounds.

However, that comes at the cost of that familiar feel that you can have when a guitar is resonating sympathetically with an amp cabinet in close proximity. I think you would feel the same perceived disappointment if you mic'd your Mark V in another room beyond your hearing range, and asked for the Mark V to only come through your monitor mix - you would perceive it as a sterilized version of the real thing.

Maybe you should invest in some really high quality in-ear monitors, like triple, quad, or six driver. Then you can block out stage volume and only hear the band monitor mix, mixed along with your axe fx.

Your experience with using floor wedges, is each instrument is live on stage - acoustic drums, vocals through the monitors, but your guitar is only through the monitors when you use the axe fx. I bet if the drums were electronic and you could only hear them through the floor wedges mixed with your axe fx, it would even the score and you wouldn't feel as disadvantaged.

Since you can't make the drums electronic, do the next best thing that you CAN control - isolate your ears from ambient stage volume and use in-ears. Block out stage volume - mix everything through the in-ears and even the playing field. It will give you a more realistic perception of how your guitar sounds compared to the rest of the band. It will sterilize the drums into a CD/radio format, as well, and level your perception of how the Axe II really sounds.
That's actually a great idea and technique to separate the 'in the room' feel from the sound.
 

Sted

Inspired
I think I totally agree with you. But things may change with a CLR totally on stage with axe. But there is no point for me still, If carry that 45 lbs monitor to plane. I carry my combo :)
Definitely sounds like in ears are something you should be looking at, I'd love to try them but there's no point in the little pub/club band I'm in. By the way I actually got my CLR sounding pretty damn good last night at rehearsal, I've a gig Friday which will be the acid test but I'm pretty confident with it now.
PS They do a neodymium speaker version now which is a lot lighter, might be worth a look, still a big thing to take on a plane though!
 

Cem

Experienced
Definitely sounds like in ears are something you should be looking at, I'd love to try them but there's no point in the little pub/club band I'm in. By the way I actually got my CLR sounding pretty damn good last night at rehearsal, I've a gig Friday which will be the acid test but I'm pretty confident with it now.
PS They do a neodymium speaker version now which is a lot lighter, might be worth a look, still a big thing to take on a plane though!
Exactly and it needs a flight case to do so. I don't think it's worth the effort. Am I wrong guys?
 

Cem

Experienced
Is there anyone able to handle this hearing change from venue to venue with a good price/performance in-ears? 300-400 dollars for example?
 
Top Bottom