I need a powered monitor without dsp (no latency)

the point has to keep getting re-iterated in these latency related theads - it's NOT about the latency in any one component and whether it's percievable or not. it IS about the cumulative amount of latency in the whole signal chain and how closely that approaches, or exceeds a given user's personal tolerance (which can vary from person to person). Tracking + minimizing latency in each component as much as possible is important so that one's whole assembled rig can remain viable and open to expansion without pushing the total latency past the point of tolerance. For my needs, any monitors dsp is a waste of latency margin.

Huh? Could you be more specific???? ;)
 
I am very sensitive to phase issues and comb filtering. These drive me mad and are why I can’t use Xitone wedges that use the Dayton amps. Their DSP induces horrible phase artifacts that drive me mad.

Or it might be the latency and I just didn’t know it! 😂
It actually might be latency.

FWIW, I haven't used Dayton amps or Xitone wedges...it's possible they just suck. But, in general, outside of specific flaws, "phase artifacts" in this context usually just sound like EQs.

Almost all EQs work via phase distortions.

Linear phase digital EQs "fix" the phase distortions they cause (while maintaining the change to frequency response), but they do it at the cost of a LOT of latency....like a factor of 10x to 200x depending on a few details. And they cause other artifacts (pre-ringing) as a side-effect. Most of the time, to me and to a lot of people, the "phase artifacts" from a minimum phase EQ sound better than the pre-ringing from a linear phase EQ once the EQ changes are significant enough to hear either.

Through a lot of research, people can generally hear latency above some individual threshold. But, it's a lot harder to hear the phase-y part of an EQ (as opposed to the EQ change). (ETA....or associated just phase distortions, e.g., from an all-pass filter.)

If nothing else, rooms act as minimum phase EQs...worse than that, they act as incredibly complex minimum phase comb filters. If your room is halfway normal, you've got hundreds of very tight-Q boosts and cuts, some probably of 10-20dB, spread out from 200Hz to 20kHz from playing a sound in your room. Even if you're in a7-figure (just for the room) studio with a Trinnov, you've still got quite a few. And that's ignoring the potentially-weirder effects below ~200Hz (depending on the Scrhoeder frequency of your room).

Do rooms sound phase-y?

No. Your brain just ignores it like everyone else's does. One room might sound brighter than another. But that happens in addition to the ridiculous amounts of comb filtering in literally every room (that isn't an anechoic chamber).
 
I’m far from an expert in that field even though I do a lot of production and mixing.
The Dayton amp only sounds good when I defeat the DSP crossover and turn off the tweeter. I’m not faulting Xitone, it just does not work for me.
Conversely in the same room I’ve used D&B and L’Acoustics speakers with zero issues.
So I don’t fault the room. Just the DSP.
I’m looking at replacing the speakers with a single full range speaker. Just to avoid the DSP crossover.
 
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I’m far from an expert in that field even though I do a lot of production and mixing.
The Dayton amp only sounds good when I defeat the DSP crossover and turn off the tweeter. I’m not faulting Xitone, it just does not work for me.
Conversely in the same room I’ve used D&B and L’Acoustics speakers with zero issues.
So I don’t fault the room. Just the DSP.
Ok looking at replacing the speakers with a single full range speaker. Just to avoid the DSP crossover.
It really could be latency from the Dayton's DSP. Or a problem with their DSP.

It looks like they're supposed to have bluetooth compatibility and some modes and stuff...so it's not just a DSP crossover. Depending on exactly how they did that, it might have tipped the whole system over your latency threshold. Or it could be doing something weird based on some mode or something.

I think the worst case would be if the Dayton DSP is using a linear phase XO. That would increase latency and induce pre-ringing, which might sound like phase distortions to some people (it messes with transients).

But, yes, full range single speakers or analog crossovers will avoid that (though analog crossovers induce phase distortions). That's why I said what I did...it depends on whether you're right about the "phase-y" thing or not. Going to something with an analog crossover would very probably make that problem worse if it's a phase-y thing or better if it's a pre-ringing or latency thing.
 
It actually might be latency.

FWIW, I haven't used Dayton amps or Xitone wedges...it's possible they just suck. But, in general, outside of specific flaws, "phase artifacts" in this context usually just sound like EQs.

Almost all EQs work via phase distortions.

Linear phase digital EQs "fix" the phase distortions they cause (while maintaining the change to frequency response), but they do it at the cost of a LOT of latency....like a factor of 10x to 200x depending on a few details. And they cause other artifacts (pre-ringing) as a side-effect. Most of the time, to me and to a lot of people, the "phase artifacts" from a minimum phase EQ sound better than the pre-ringing from a linear phase EQ once the EQ changes are significant enough to hear either.

Through a lot of research, people can generally hear latency above some individual threshold. But, it's a lot harder to hear the phase-y part of an EQ (as opposed to the EQ change). (ETA....or associated just phase distortions, e.g., from an all-pass filter.)

If nothing else, rooms act as minimum phase EQs...worse than that, they act as incredibly complex minimum phase comb filters. If your room is halfway normal, you've got hundreds of very tight-Q boosts and cuts, some probably of 10-20dB, spread out from 200Hz to 20kHz from playing a sound in your room. Even if you're in a7-figure (just for the room) studio with a Trinnov, you've still got quite a few. And that's ignoring the potentially-weirder effects below ~200Hz (depending on the Scrhoeder frequency of your room).

Do rooms sound phase-y?

No. Your brain just ignores it like everyone else's does. One room might sound brighter than another. But that happens in addition to the ridiculous amounts of comb filtering in literally every room (that isn't an anechoic chamber).
I like learning. Thanks for this.
 
If I may suggest, just using a solid-state amplifier and an analog 31 band equalizer to flatten the frequency response adds no real latency. Use with a passive cab and you should be set. That's what I do and I feel less latency than with other DSP leveled solutions. For comparison though, there are some DSP with very low latency like mini-DSP at 1.5ms. But if you want 0 latency, I would do the above.
 
Just got my Friedman ASC-10 today. First impression is, vow, it has a lot of low end! Makes my EV PXM12 sound thin next to it. I get it now why I read from several users that the Friedman sounds dark. Not sure though that it is necessarily such a bad thing. I'll probably keep my current preset settings and see how the next gig goes with the Friedman in the backline, before making changes to the sound.

Sorry OP, don't know whether the Friedman has a DSP or not. It sounds good though :)
 
This surprises the heck out of me. I have more low end than I need on my EV's.
Could be my EV settings. I think I might have turned bass down a bit on it.

Honestly, I think the EV sounds "better", but the Friedman should be fun to have on stage to fight the 40W tube combo of my singer.
 
Yes, it's fun and can sound impressively boomy, but I got the impression it was designed to impress those who dwell mainly in the limbic system.
Nothing wrong with that :)

  1. a complex system of nerves and networks in the brain, involving several areas near the edge of the cortex concerned with instinct and mood. It controls the basic emotions (fear, pleasure, anger) and drives (hunger, sex, dominance, care of offspring).
 
Nothing wrong with that :)
Except that it can easily trash the mix if anyone but you hears it.

Crazy emphasized bass for guitar reminds me of the super-saturated "store mode" for TVs. It grabs your attention at a glance, but nothing looks right if you actually watch anything without setting it to a more sensible mode. I think that's what he was getting at.

The thump is awesome when you're by yourself. But, those bottom few octaves are the bass player's job. The low end of the guitar is not going through the PA or into the recording desk unless it's the engineer's first day, so there's no real reason to exaggerate it. All it's doing is wasting headroom.

I guess that doesn't apply to some modern metal with extended range guitars. But, that's a world that confuses me to no end.
 
One thing to add to this thread: Speakers utilizing FIR processing will have more latency. This includes all the current RCF speakers (unless there's a few that haven't been upgraded to a newer mk status), the Yamaha DXR Mk2s, and many if not most of the current pro level, high end speakers. Fullcrum speakers for example have 3.4ms, which is pretty standard from what I've heard, and some of the high end European brands I contacted had as much as 8ms. It depends on how low in freq they go with the processing and the sample rate used.

For me, the more tight and syncopated the music, the more it's felt. So with fast funk or afro latin music its more noticeable than classic rock for example.
 
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This surprises the heck out of me. I have more low end than I need on my EV's.
I had Bass at -3dB and Highs at +3dB on the EV. I set them both to 0 and it's closer now to the Friedman. Still quite a bit brighter and more articulate than the Friedman.
 
Tested direct sound vs Laney LFR-112 (which is 100% analog according their custumer service) using the above method:

1665332226795.png

latency laney.jpg

The mic was placed the closest possible, and both tracks input levels were practically the same.

Measured 0,45ms difference between the two tracks.

The latency is virtually zero because 0,45ms equals 15cm (which is the approximate distance between the speaker and the mic).
 
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Tested direct sound vs Laney LFR-112.

View attachment 109577

Measured 0,45ms difference between the two tracks.

The latency is virtually zero because 0,45ms equals 15cm (which is the approximate distance between the speaker and the mic).
not bad! but still, 1/2ms more latency in your rig which is 1/2ms less latency margin to work with elsewhere when needed - and, even for that small amount I'm not sure it's worth what we get for it in terms of added value that dsp in a monitor brings - at least in my use case. 1/2ms here, 1/2ms there... - before you know it: bad vibes.
 
not bad! but still, 1/2ms more latency in your rig which is 1/2ms less latency margin to work with elsewhere when needed - and, even for that small amount I'm not Again, I can not assure the this latency checking method is 100% accurate, but it is close enough due the variables (a better one would be recorded directly from the speaker out, which I can´t)

Again, I can not ensure that this latency checking method is 100% accurate because the distance from the speaker and the mic is a factor to be considered, but the result is close enough (a better method would be record directly from the speaker out using cable).
 
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