I had a Sobering Experience Last Night

B

brettllingle

Inspired
Last night I tried out for a pretty popular band here in Phoenix. I always thought my tone was kick ass playing at home to records and just noodling. I own and play strictly EBMM Majesty guitars 6 and 7 string using the JP2C modeled in the Axe-Fx III through 2 Xitone Cabs. When I got to the tryout I was plugged into the massive PA they had at the rehearsal space still thought it sounded great. Then the other guitar player plugged into his Bogner and proceeded to stomp all over my sound. It was full and thick where mine was scooped and thin. Now here is the weird part I walked over to the other guitar players amp and noticed he had his mids dimed. It sounded incredible. The settings I used for the JP2C were exactly the same ones JP uses himself and I think his tone is stellar. My question is there a difference between how you set your tone controls live vs. playing at home? I understand the Fletcher Munson curve and all that and I compensate for that already. Just wondering if maybe the tone controls and EQ don't react the way they do on the real amp?
 
Simple question - does JP use the same PA you were using?

I suspect not

The Fractal controls do work the same, that's why I like them - and I've done side by side.

Common problem I've had is that it's not the PA it's the monitoring - you're hearing a guitar through a 4x12, sounds glorious blasting straight at you, where was the PA facing? Get in front of the PA - then you'll hear a lot more
 
firstly, the tone controls work exactly like they do on the amp

secondly, there are so many variables at play here, it may be tough to nail exactly what was going on

firstly - two different amps and cabs
secondly - was their pa flat? (probably not)
thirdly - think about JP's eq curve - lots of mids in there, or are they being cut? (scooped?)

"thick" can sometimes equate to "bass" and then when you get in a band situation, the actual bass player will use up all of that frequency space, leaving you with mids and top. if you're mids are scooped, what are you left with?

if you made a note fo the other guitarists settings and you know which bogner he was using, then why not try dialling it in and see how it sounds?
 
peteri said:
Simple question - does JP use the same PA you were using?

I suspect not

The Fractal controls do work the same, that's why I like them - and I've done side by side.

Common problem I've had is that it's not the PA it's the monitoring - you're hearing a guitar through a 4x12, sounds glorious blasting straight at you, where was the PA facing? Get in front of the PA - then you'll hear a lot more
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I was using my two Xitone Cabs. Im just wondering if I need to dime my mids too to keep up with the other guitar player. He was playing through a Marshall 4 x12. The PA was pretty massive at the rehearsal space I believe it was QSC. They had multiple stacks and many bass bins I didn't count how many but it looked like a stage setup for a concert.
 
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simeon said:
firstly, the tone controls work exactly like they do on the amp

secondly, there are so many variables at play here, it may be tough to nail exactly what was going on

firstly - two different amps and cabs
secondly - was their pa flat? (probably not)
thirdly - think about JP's eq curve - lots of mids in there, or are they being cut? (scooped?)

"thick" can sometimes equate to "bass" and then when you get in a band situation, the actual bass player will use up all of that frequency space, leaving you with mids and top. if you're mids are scooped, what are you left with?

if you made a note fo the other guitarists settings and you know which bogner he was using, then why not try dialling it in and see how it sounds?
Click to expand...

I am not sure but I knew it had Blue and Red Channels so perhaps its the Euro Red and Blue in the Axe? When I got home last night I dimed my mids as well on the JP2C and got similar results. I haven't played in a live band situation like that in 10 years. There really is a difference between how you should set your tone controls and playing to music at home.
 
I had the same issue once with my old Mesa quad preamp rig. Was fine alone. Had a guy try out, he had a Marshall slash original head and 4x12 Cab and it was like I disappeared.
 
Tweak tweak tweak. I’ve used real amps and AxeFX in the studio and live. Gotta tweak your ass off and then start over from scratch. Remember. The AxeFX is a simulation of a mic’d cab. Listen to the amp and AxeFX thru the PA but make sure you can’t hear the real amp at all. That’s a fair comparison. You can do that easily in an studio. Live you gotta crank the PA.
 
ideally what you're looking for is a balanced sound. just diming the mids isn't really the solution. you could end up sounding "boxy" or "cheap". the trick really is not to cut them all out. remember that the bogners have pretty weird treble pot tapers, where max on the treble control may only be about 50% on something like a marshall. you'd can dial a marshall in with mid and treb at max and it doesn't sound particularly "middly". it just sounds full and balanced. JP's graphic settings are really scooped. try flattening that eq out a bit, so instead of -12db cut in the mids, make it -3 or -4db and compensate by raising/lowering the other bands slightly. thing is, if you play with another guy who has a different sound than yours, then whoever has a more balanced sound will always win and the guy with scooped mids will always lose.
 
The other guitarist probably dialed the tone on his amp when playing with the band. You dialied yours in at home. Regardless of what equipment you are using you need to dial in your sound for the situation at hand, based on what you're playing through and who you're playing with. Every sound is different in context.
 
I had a similar experience last band I auditioned for. This band was heavy Led Zep, Stones, Aerosmith influenced and the other guitarist was using a JVM410 Combo. It was a good size practice room set up like a stage, not facing each other. The PA was only running vox as I recall.

I was running my trusty Axe-Fx 2 that I had been gigging for years and monitoring with my QSC K12. I know my playing was on point, but I could tell the rest of the band weren't digging my tones. They were authentic tube guys and apparently hadn't played with someone using the Axe-Fx and a frfr pa speaker before.

The other guitarist was very loud, but on the other side of the stage. His tone definitely had more girth in the lower mids. This is something I have never been able to dial in using my QSC K12. The way I had the QSC up and behind me, I could hear myself ok.

I didn't get the gig. I don't think these guys would have wanted anything but a real cab just as much for the classic image thing as for tone/sounds.

The experience had me really rethinking things wondering if I should go back to amp/cab or at least change my monitoring.

I have received lots of compliments on my tone over the years, but even other players sometimes want that amp in the room thing and/or aren't open to the new paradigm.
 
I have never heard an amp modeler>PA monitor that could keep up with a loud tube or SS amp and guitar cabinet. If I'm playing with another guitarist that's using a traditional rig and want to use a modeler I will run it through a combo amp's return for stage monitoring while either micing a speaker, sending a direct out from the modeler to the FOH or both together.
 
This is a good read - I was concerned as I recently had a new band audition - but I know they struggle with volume in some small bars here (heard them twice before the audition) and it is a single guitarist gig so I wasn't too worried. I tweak everything at home at gig vol through my Alto 2x12s and it translated pretty well at the audtion.
 
lqdsnddist said:
I don’t know if I’d want to regularly practice with a group where two XiTones feel like they can’t keep up volume wise, that has got to be darn loud.....
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The floor was rumbling lol. It's not that they weren't loud enough just didn't sound as good as a real tube amp. To be fair I had my mids scooped in the eq and the other guitar player had his dimed.
 
My experience is that bar band guys want to stand in front of live amps. The amps aren't mic'd and neither are the drums. The PA is for vocals.

A good, comparative example is that you show up with your $1,000 acoustic drums set, and I show up with my $10,000 electronic kit with the best sampled drums being played by all the best drum legends, mic'd and preamp'd by the best gear available, recorded by the best engineers.

If we aren't mic'ing your acoustic set (or even if we are, for that matter), your kit hits everyone in the chest on-stage, while mine is the clicks of my sticks hitting the plastic drum surfaces........but I sound amazing through the PA.

Some guys can't handle that, and will not be able to concede my electric kit makes the band sound better through the PA in the mix, because they aren't getting the rumble on stage along with their amps. In a small room, where most of those types of bands frequently play, you will rock with the live guitar amps and your acoustic set, while the vocals go through the PA, whereas, with me playing, my drums and the vocals will be in the PA and the guitar amps will be coming from the stage itself....causing things to sound somewhat disconnected.

On the other hand, in a large arena, where everyone is playing with sealed in-ear monitors, the other band members will only be listening to the audio of a mic'd guitar amp.....or a direct feed from the Axe....there will be essentially no difference, especially if the real amp cabinets are off-stage and there is no felt-transfer of vibration.
 
Rex said:
Your mids scooped, his mids dimed. That's a recipe for burial.
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Exactly, doesn’t matter what either one of you are playing through.. if his mids were scooped & yours were dimed you’d have buried him. In a full mix context for guitars mids is everything, period, end of story.
 
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