I am so tired to the Tube Vs Axe FxII debate.

[BigD1977]

My operating theory is just that folks like to bicker. The topic doesn't really matter, the truth of the discussion doesn't really matter. Just some entitled sense of being 'right" at all costs.

You'll see the progression of negative behavior cycling from the "thing", to the 'idea' to attacks on the people involved all in order to 'win' some sort of forced and very singular reality. It is a cycle that repeats and repeats, creating it's own meme's that get repeated over and over ad nauseum.

One key that I always repeat as a mantra is that the more personal it gets, the less personal you can take it.

Real life is nothing like what you see online.

Meh.

Dude, you took the words out of my head.

On the particular amp vs axe fx debate, another factor is the tactile nature of an amp. I didn't really understand this until yesterday, if I'm being honest. I saw lots of talk about the Badger amp, and went onto youtube to investigate (being the curious squirrel that I am), and was blown away. It was the creaminess of the amps appearance, the boutique style, the tones...... it just looked awesome, and I wanted one immediately. Then, I remembered one very salient point.

I'm a man.

I have a psychological need to own things, and I will justify it by inventing a spurious purpose/tone/sound/smell..... anything so I don't have to face up to the reality that I don't need it. Did it sound better? Nope..... but it looked so CREAMY.......

People talk about feel all the time, and for me, the Axe 2 has it nailed. The slight lag is gone, the thump is there from my FRFR, and it's convenient. It's replaced my AC30, my Recto and my JVM. It's also opened me up to new amps (and therefore, styles of playing) that I would never have had access too. I find myself using low gain amps for tech metal, experimenting with drive pedal chains (with dubious results, it must be said), and those first 50 presets are SUCH a godsend..... I massage my ears regularly with those tones. They just let the guitar breathe, you know?

So, arguing about which is better is kind of like debating which house colour is better. Mine is, of course, because I chose it, and I need to justify it, and my ego wont let me back down. We're still both dry during the night though.

That last part of Scotts comment though...... pure gold. For further reference..... The internet is shit

 

[immortal_soloist]

Very true man,ou have stated some fantastic points. And yes Scott is absolutely correct. For me sound is the biggest aspect and the Axe II nails it perfectly while taking very little space

 

[NothingButInitials]

Maybe Cliff or someone else at Fractal could pick out an Axe-FX on a recording, but I doubt there are many others that could. In a live situation, you never know what's backstage handling the actual tones while the backline is just there for eye candy. Who knows how many artists are using the Axe-FX (or any of the other modelers or DAW plugins) on their recordings rather than the amp they're endorsing at the time? If it sounds good, who cares? If you think the audience cares at all about what gear you're using... well... we've all seen the eye-rolling when talking gear to our non-musician friends.

 

[vAmp]

My rant is that if you don't hear certain aspects, then this rant is out of place and the core is hardly spoken about...

Until we have v7, there are still some serious differences that allow "the valve bros" to have their opinion (not that I am one, but I've heard for me important differences).

It's not in vain that Cliff has hopefully managed to take away the dynamic maximum in v7 that used to be there [*and* other core improvements that must have a reason], which to me is a HUGE factor in dynamics, feel and connectedness in a real amp. I hope this will be cured in v7 and that it will also cure it for ppl that missed something in the "crack" and pick attack.

The ones that only seem to care if it sounds the same must be only into recording and not have any tube experience at all? Great for them, as they don't know what they are missing. If the feel isn't important to you, why not play synths?

I, pretty much a tube noob myself, could clearly experience the lack of a dynamic maximum in real tube amps in my visit with a vintage collector. Again: a way HUGE difference to me in the total experience. And that was not the only difference I heard.

So even I could give the adversaries at least 3 good points for still claiming their core supremacy.
I don't understand why ppl that owned real tube amps are not hearing that, but that's why I'm a tube noob probably. Maybe it's not so outspoken in the often used hi-gainers than in vintage classics?

However, I expect to be fully content with v7. What problems that might be left are less important to me than dynamics.

IOW, I find the OP to be a bit fanboi-ish, as always to be expected from the Immortal...

 

[swass]

Even in guitar amp conversations in general, (maybe not to the same extent) but you get very similar arguments. (ex: this vs. that and that vs. this, etc). I don't mean to minimize this anymore than it actually is but to generalize somewhat draws a basic parallel. Wasted time you'll never get back.

 

[immortal_soloist]

My rant is that if you don't hear certain aspects, then this rant is out of place and the core is hardly spoken about...

Until we have v7, there are still some serious differences that allow "the valve bros" to have their opinion (not that I am one, but I've heard for me important differences).

It's not in vain that Cliff has hopefully managed to take away the dynamic maximum in v7 that used to be there [*and* other core improvements that must have a reason], which to me is a HUGE factor in dynamics, feel and connectedness in a real amp. I hope this will be cured in v7 and that it will also cure it for ppl that missed something in the "crack" and pick attack.

The ones that only seem to care if it sounds the same must be only into recording and not have any tube experience at all? Great for them, as they don't know what they are missing. If the feel isn't important to you, why not play synths?

I, pretty much a tube noob myself, could clearly experience the lack of a dynamic maximum in real tube amps in my visit with a vintage collector. Again: a way HUGE difference to me in the total experience. And that was not the only difference I heard.

So even I could give the adversaries at least 3 good points for still claiming their core supremacy.
I don't understand why ppl that owned real tube amps are not hearing that, but that's why I'm a tube noob probably. Maybe it's not so outspoken in the often used hi-gainers than in vintage classics?

However, I expect to be fully content with v7. What problems that might be left are less important to me than dynamics.

IOW, I find the OP to be a bit fanboi-ish, as always to be expected from the Immortal...

Hahahah it's not about being a fan boy really . I personally love the feel of the Axe FxII and many others do as well. I love tubes too and I think they are great. My original post refers to the fact that people still nit pick stuff and argue over ridiculous things,that are nothing more than a waste of time.

At this point the Axe FxII and tube amps are head to head pretty much,what bothers me is people still want to continue arguing. Less arguing more playing that should be the attitude .

Cheers man.

 

[J.C]

They both have their merits, and I don't think they're as similar as some people make it seem.

 

[kerrlehr]

Don't take the V-bait guys....
Perfect example of OP's point.

 

[Axeman]

Whatever your opinion on this topic, keep this in mind:



The brain can play tricks on you. Note what the first speaker says. You HAVE TO DO A BLIND TEST. You can't know what you are listening to. Many people judge things when they know what they are hearing.

Unless you do a fair and unbiased (e.g., blind or double blind, etc.) test or comparison, there is no way to say who is right/wrong or what is better. We all perceive tone/notes differently, so who is to judge. My opinion is that if Cliff set up an Axe vs. a real amp and I had no knowledge of what I'm listening to (in other words I was a classical music student that doesn't even know what the comparison is about), and I was told to say which is analog and which is digital, I bet that 85%+ of all people couldn't tell the difference (per the topic in the video) or they could not tell you which is analog and which is digital. We have our own biases based on so many things. We want to hear certain things. But if you were put in a truly unbiased test, I'm sure the difference would at least be negligible.

It's like those audiophiles who put their $1000/ft cable on stands so it doesn't touch the floor and then they say they hear the difference. I just don't buy it.

 

[Sebastian]

Watched a few minutes, very interesting - bookmarked! Thanks for that.

 

[Axeman]

Watched a few minutes, very interesting - bookmarked! Thanks for that.

What I find very interesting is that your brain hear different things each time you listen to the same thing depending on what you are focused on (the highs or the lows). This video is so great because it gets back to science and facts.

 

[skintone1]

My rant is that if you don't hear certain aspects, then this rant is out of place and the core is hardly spoken about...

Until we have v7, there are still some serious differences that allow "the valve bros" to have their opinion (not that I am one, but I've heard for me important differences).

It's not in vain that Cliff has hopefully managed to take away the dynamic maximum in v7 that used to be there [*and* other core improvements that must have a reason], which to me is a HUGE factor in dynamics, feel and connectedness in a real amp. I hope this will be cured in v7 and that it will also cure it for ppl that missed something in the "crack" and pick attack.

The ones that only seem to care if it sounds the same must be only into recording and not have any tube experience at all? Great for them, as they don't know what they are missing. If the feel isn't important to you, why not play synths?

I, pretty much a tube noob myself, could clearly experience the lack of a dynamic maximum in real tube amps in my visit with a vintage collector. Again: a way HUGE difference to me in the total experience. And that was not the only difference I heard.

So even I could give the adversaries at least 3 good points for still claiming their core supremacy.
I don't understand why ppl that owned real tube amps are not hearing that, but that's why I'm a tube noob probably. Maybe it's not so outspoken in the often used hi-gainers than in vintage classics?

However, I expect to be fully content with v7. What problems that might be left are less important to me than dynamics.

IOW, I find the OP to be a bit fanboi-ish, as always to be expected from the Immortal...

Sorry to seem dim, but I don't know what you are referring to when you say " dynamic maximum".
What is that, and are you saying that tube amps don't have it, but the current version of Axe DOES have it?
And do others reading this know what this means, and is it important to others ?

Just asking

 

[BigD1977]

Sorry to seem dim, but I don't know what you are referring to when you say " dynamic maximum".
What is that, and are you saying that tube amps don't have it, but the current version of Axe DOES have it?
And do others reading this know what this means, and is it important to others ?

Just asking

I really don't know what the poster is referring to, but in regards to a 'dynamic maximum', I would assume by this terminology that this term refers to the maximum voltage that a circuit can handle (rather than a maximum voltage before distortion or clipping, which is a different aspect). Given that analogue and digital distortion are two sonically different characteristics, one dependent on circuit architecture (analogue), and the other pretty universal (digital, and I'm referring only to a sonic sense where the digital signal gets truncated to a square wave when clipping occurs), then I would assume that it's not really a dynamic range characteristic, and more of a distortion characteristic. If this is the case, I think (in most cases) that the Axe 2 has it nailed, but as in all things, I remain to be further educated.

Given that most guitarists aren't educated to engineering standards, I'm willing to throw this into the 'heard it from a friend' bin, but I'm equally open to justifiable scientific reasoning.

 

[Cron]

I'd like to say that I love my Axe-fx 2. Ive been a axefx user since 2008. Ive bought and sold many tube amps since getiing my axe-fx and i still have a couple. I have said since the ultra days that i hear less dynamics when just comparing preamp sims only to their real world counterparts and now doing tone matched preamp sections into real amp head power sections or rack power amps. Im very excited for v7 because it might fix an issue I noticed a long time ago. At the moment these differences i hear become less when using the axe frfr (comparing to a mic'd real amp) and that is where i think the unit really shines. None-the-less, if the difference is there when isolating the preamp sections then there are improvements possible across the board. The last experiment i did was tone matching my Mesa Studio Preamp.... the tone match had the same eq and was very close in sound, it just didnt feel as dynamic.... and trust me i wanted it to be just as good.

I'll take this opportunity to thank Cliff and his team for striving to be better and not settling down to just watch the cash roll in. Free firmware updates are awesome and is part of why i will continue to support FAS.

 

[BigD1977]

I'd like to say that I love my Axe-fx 2. Ive been a axefx user since 2008. Ive bought and sold many tube amps since getiing my axe-fx and i still have a couple. I have said since the ultra days that i hear less dynamics when just comparing preamp sims only to their real world counterparts and now doing tone matched preamp sections into real amp head power sections or rack power amps. Im very excited for v7 because it might fix an issue I noticed a long time ago. At the moment these differences i hear become less when using the axe frfr (comparing to a mic'd real amp) and that is where i think the unit really shines. None-the-less, if the difference is there when isolating the preamp sections then there are improvements possible across the board. The last experiment i did was tone matching my Mesa Studio Preamp.... the tone match had the same eq and was very close in sound, it just didnt feel as dynamic.... and trust me i wanted it to be just as good.

I'll take this opportunity to thank Cliff and his team for striving to be better and not settling down to just watch the cash roll in. Free firmware updates are awesome and is part of why i will continue to support FAS.

I have to ask.... were there any blind tests carried out when comparing the Axe and valve amps? Because the tactile nature of amps can be very misleading regarding actual sonic characteristics, as I have found out myself, and I'm speaking as a person who has used valve amps manufactured (not just designed, and most definitely not high gain) in the 1960s for the past 25 years. I'm not just talking about valve amps btw, as I have used some excellent transistor amps in both live and recording situations.

 

[Sebastian]

I have to ask.... were there any blind tests carried out when comparing the Axe and valve amps?

According to Cliff, there have been (back with gen. 1 units!) and (according to Cliff) people could not distinguish in a double blind test.
Admitted [= IMHO], people and compared tube amps may be an important factor.

 

[Sebastian]

What I find very interesting is that your brain hear different things each time you listen to the same thing depending on what you are focused on (the highs or the lows). This video is so great because it gets back to science and facts.

Yup, and that's the main reason I miss Jay on this board. You may disagree with the way he leads a conversation but the input he gave on a scientific basis has been invaluable IMO.

Regarding different hearing:
Deception is perceptive. Perception is deceptive.

When it comes to visual things people frankly concede (because it's kind of common knowledge that eyes are fooled easily), but when it comes to sound (let alone "feel", i.e. the way an amplifying device responds) most people won't let go off "I hear it so it's real for sure".

 

[skintone1]

Whatever your opinion on this topic, keep this in mind:



The brain can play tricks on you. Note what the first speaker says. You HAVE TO DO A BLIND TEST. You can't know what you are listening to. Many people judge things when they know what they are hearing.

Unless you do a fair and unbiased (e.g., blind or double blind, etc.) test or comparison, there is no way to say who is right/wrong or what is better. We all perceive tone/notes differently, so who is to judge. My opinion is that if Cliff set up an Axe vs. a real amp and I had no knowledge of what I'm listening to (in other words I was a classical music student that doesn't even know what the comparison is about), and I was told to say which is analog and which is digital, I bet that 85%+ of all people couldn't tell the difference (per the topic in the video) or they could not tell you which is analog and which is digital. We have our own biases based on so many things. We want to hear certain things. But if you were put in a truly unbiased test, I'm sure the difference would at least be negligible.

It's like those audiophiles who put their $1000/ft cable on stands so it doesn't touch the floor and then they say they hear the difference. I just don't buy it.

Thanks so much for posting this video.
It is very important and pertains to just about all the discussion on this forum !
It should be mandatory viewing for all of us before we start getting too sure of our opinions ...

 

[Cron]

According to Cliff, there have been (back with gen. 1 units!) and (according to Cliff) people could not distinguish in a double blind test.
Admitted [= IMHO], people and compared tube amps may be an important factor.

If i recall correctly Cliff also stated when the Axe-fx ii was released (firmware v1) that compared to the real counterparts it was "100%.... seriously"

Tell me this then.... why have we had so many amazing firmware updates that has brought us closer? And if what im hearing in terms of dynamics in the preamp sections is not real... then why the need for the sound improvement of v7? Or has the axe-fx finally reached that point where it sounds more dynamic and "real" than the real amps?! :>

As for whether i did double blind tests.... no i did not. I want the axefx to replace all my gear so i can sell it and make space.... if anything id be biased towards the axe-fx. Ive got to say that i test my sounds at gig levels... at low-ish volumes the difference becomes less.

I have to ad that i talk about these differences from a players perspective and concerning feeling "connected" to the sound coming out of a real guitar cab. A listener in a double blind test might not hear what im hearing (and feeling) because they arent plucking the strings. How much you notice it also depends on your technique (fingerpicking highlights it)

This is all imho..... i might be crazy and delusional

 

[Kruegmeister]

If i recall correctly Cliff also stated when the Axe-fx ii was released (firmware v1) that compared to the real counterparts it was "100%.... seriously"

Tell me this then.... why have we had so many amazing firmware updates that has brought us closer? And if what im hearing in terms of dynamics in the preamp sections is not real... then why the need for the sound improvement of v7? Or has the axe-fx finally reached that point where it sounds 110% as real as the real amp counterparts? :>

As for whether i did double blind tests.... no i did not. I want the axefx to replace all my gear so i can sell it and make space.... if anything id be biased towards the axe-fx. Ive got to say that i test my sounds at gig levels... at low-ish volumes the difference becomes less.

I have to ad that i talk about these differences from a players perspective and concerning feeling "connected" to the sound coming out of whatever device you use for amplification. A listener in a double blind test might not hear what im hearing (and feeling) because they arent plucking the strings. How much you notice it also depends on your technique (fingerpicking highlights it)

This is all imho.

New Firmware 6 added closer matching of the Knobs: At 5 on Axe Equal to the Knobs on the Real Amp at 5. It also added Tone Matching and More Amps.
Firmware 7 will add even more Amps VH4, Div/13, etc... and Improved Reverbs etc...
Making an Amp sound Awesome has been in there for Quite Some Time, However the New Firmwares have made it easier to Get there.