How to translate tone to FOH?

If I continue to use the Mesa cabs or get one of the other speaker solutions I still have to get the FOH right. I have a pair of M-Audio BX 8"s but I'm not confident getting a tone with those will translate well.

If you are happy with your Monitor sound as it is (20/20, pair of 1x12 Mesa Cabs) and just want a system, which you can trust (in fact: monitoring) that it will respond also well at FOH direct ...

... the classical way would be: FOH-Engineer will mic up (both) of your cabs. The same result could be achieved by capturing your own IRs of THIS Soundsystem and use those Cab IRs for direct out to FOH in future, side by side monitoring at stage through the "real thing".

Advantage:
1) You can use the stuff you have and like.
2) You monitor sound and feel stays as it is - CLR, Matrix, etc: Yeah: all good stuff, but it is a paradigm change and it affects the "feel". It`s for many people - but not for all! Perhaps you are one of them - who knows.
3) IR capture of the own guitar-cabs would be equal to "mic up" on stage - but with the diffewrence of having time to find the right mics, sweetspots, best personal preferences what sound you`re looking for ... Capturing routing in this case should be: Axe-Fx -> 20/20 -> MesaCab -> Mic. this will guarantee to capture also sound influences frequency wise of the 20/20 as well - what in fact make sense in this case.

I would try this route. Trying out different Mics and / positions (or the simple way: Place the usual FOH mic [SM57?] the same way your Engenieer will do in common - control the result with your BX 8"`s - and if it sounds good there, it should be fine! The rest is up to FOH guy - as it ever was since Amps were miced up on stages ...

Just my 2 cents ...
 
The tuned preset from the Axe would be no different then if you had a real amp with a mic stuffed in front of it. The real amp is what it is and the mic is going to send that information the board and the sound person will still have to make it fit into the context of the other instruments because of the conditions of the house and/or the system. The end result is still going to be the same wether it's coming from the mic in front of the amp or fron the cab sim in the Axe... not trying to agitate you here Laz :lol but does that make any sense?.

The only real difference is the amount of time it took to get the tone you wanted to hear from ether device.

I am really trying to understand this because I might have to go the FOH route on some gigs next year and honestly the more I think about it the less sense it makes to me.


I know if I mike my cab and send it to the PA, tone wise it is going to sound the pretty much the same (yes I know miked tone). In this case what I put in is coming out of FOH.

Lets take a FRFR monitor I purchased to play at home with my AXE-FX. I spent hours tweaking my presets and they sound awesome through my powered monitor.

I go to a gig and run the patch direct through the PA.

What folks here are saying is that it is going to sound the same because XYZ monitor is ( fill in the buzz words).

What I am trying to understand is how could this be the case?

Logic dictates that it will sound different and you will need to re-tweak your preset for the PA and you will end up with a completely different sound coming out of XYZ monitor than what you originally programmed into it via the patch.

Again, logic dedicates if you are running FOH, you are better off tweaking your presets to a PA system especially if you have access to it (i.e. the band owns it).
 
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first off I said all monitors not just the CLR.

and you are right ... I do not use FOH ...

I am assuming you do and the preset you created for your CLR sounds the same when you send it through a PA system.

Like I said I just do not get it.

I am trying to understand how if you highly tweak a preset for a specific monitor it is going to going to sound the same going through a PA system.

"Logic dictates" that it won't.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you tweak your presets to sound good going out of your N12's. Then, you mic your cabs and send to FOH. At that point, you tweak the FOH, correct? Why would this be different for CLR's or other FRFR options?

I tweak my presets to sound good going through the Q12A's. If FOH colors my tone, I let them tweak at their end.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you tweak your presets to sound good going out of your N12's. Then, you mic your cabs and send to FOH. At that point, you tweak the FOH, correct? Why would this be different for CLR's or other FRFR options?

I tweak my presets to sound good going through the Q12A's. If FOH colors my tone, I let them tweak at their end.



It is much different to mike a cab than to send a patch highly tweaked to a specific monitor to FOH.

The miked cab is going to sound pretty much the same --- I don't see logically how the highly tweaked patch will.
 
At home I use 2 Matrix Q12s powered by the GT1000fx to dial in my tone at very loud volumes. I've found (through recording the gig with a Zoom H4N) that the tone seems to translate well to FOH.
 
There is no magic bullet people. No matter what you use, the FOH guy will have his/her way. Opinions vary greatly about what a good mix sounds like.

I tweak my patches through my k12 at volume, and through my jam hub for band practice... through the k12 they translate well into the jam hub which has no EQ on it, so it's been a pretty good barometer for me.
 
At home I use 2 Matrix Q12s powered by the GT1000fx to dial in my tone at very loud volumes. I've found (through recording the gig with a Zoom H4N) that the tone seems to translate well to FOH.

I don't know man.

Not that I don't believe you .. it is not just logical.
 
This is simply the way it has worked for me , Everyone's experience and opinion's are much respected!! CLR's are the most accurate monitors I've used for the Ax Fx period (and I've pretty much tried them all)! FOH and FR is a different animal that you have to get use to, anyone who is use to playing through a cab won't like it until they have adjusted to the difference! IR's ( especially most 4x12's have more than desired low end , and it took me a while to grasp that, I would set up a patch through my power amp and cab ( usually had to increase low resonace considerably ( sounded good though), then try IR's and it was way to boomy or bass heavy and the highs weren't quite right! Once you get a system for creating FR patches it begins to work ( and they will be different!)I've been chasing that rabbit since the early 90's after realizing that wonderful tone I hear ,isn't close to what the audience hears unless you have a tech and a bunch of processing !tried pretty much all the available options at the time and wound up going through a Marshall JMP-1 , Marshall Mono block tube Pwr amp and a SE- 100 Speaker emulator, rack effects unit's .. Worked well, but won't touch the AxFx!!! I want them to hear what I hear or I might as well play at home! It does take a substantial commitment to get use to FR!
 
I don't know man.

Not that I don't believe you .. it is not just logical.

It may not be 100% the same sound, but it sounds good.

If it sounds good --> the audience is happy --> you get more gigs ->more money->happy wife->more sex->happy man->
happy man play better->happier audience->bigger gigs->s... loads of money->leave wife and have sex with lotsa girls->alcohol, sex and heroine-->man dies of stroke.

How is that for logic ;)
 
It isn't all that complicated when you consider all of the factors. Most FOH's are not flat. I don't know many bands that use a pink noise generator and RTA to equalize their FOH to flat in every room they play in. And it wouldn't matter if they did since you could only set it for flat response in one spot in the room. Every other spot in the room will not be flat - two feet away won't be flat. That is the reality of live sound. Now to the guitar part: Most IR's are bass heavy. When you mic up a cabinet in a room, you point the mic at the speaker. But what part of the speaker are you pointing the mic at? Usually it is about the spot where the cone and the dust cap join. This attenuates a lot of the bass that the cab projects (including what it projects off the back of the cab). Sound people know this, and do it on purpose because that produces a guitar tone that will cut through the mix and not be muddy. As a result, you will need to cut bass on your patches in the Axe to sound like they should in the mix. But if you tweak your patches to sound good through a FRFR monitor speaker, it will influence your tone since there is no such thing as true FRFR (and no such thing as a true anechoic chamber - which nobody uses to tweak their patches anyway). So the flatter (frequency response) the monitor and the room you use to tweak your patches are, the closer you will get to a neutral and balanced equalization that will be most easily adapted for good tone in the FOH system. The CLR is the flattest and most honest monitor I have heard (and I have heard, tried or owned a lot of them), so I am confident that the signal that I send the FOH is neutral and balanced enough to be easily tweaked by the FOH mixer to get an excellent tone in the FOH. Does it sound identical to the sound coming out of the FOH? No, for a few reasons. One is that the FOH may not be as high of quality of a system as the CLR is, or it may be higher quality (doubtful though). Another reason is described above, no PA is completely flat, no room is flat, and every place in the room is different. Phasing and reflections and comb filtering preclude any possibility of this. But setting a PA to be as flat response as possible in as many places in the room as possible is a good starting point, Then you tweak the FOH from there. The same is true of your guitar patch tones: the more balanced they are on a flat response system, the easier it is to get them to sound good in a variety of PA's and rooms. I know that when I tweaked my patches on a slightly bass deficient monitor, I was shocked how bass-heavy the tone was in the FOH full range system. I then tweaked my patches to sound good in the FOH system and did without the bass response in my monitor. Then when I got my CLR, the bass sounded just right, just like it does in the FOH.

That said, if you prefer an amp in the room tone as opposed to the tone that the audience is actually hearing, then a flat response monitor may not be for you.
 
I can understand if it is your back line -- but once you send the patch you tweaked for the monitor to FOH -- what the audience hears will be different than what you are hearing from your monitor.


Which to me begs the question why bring a high end FRFR monitor to a gig if you are going FOH?


It may not be 100% the same sound, but it sounds good.
 
That is why it is best if your monitor is as flat response as possible. Then your tones going to the FOH will be as balanced as possible, which should yield your best chance of a good tone in the FOH. Look at it this way: if your monitor is deficient in a frequency range - let's say for the sake of this discussion it is deficient from 100 Hz to 200 Hz. You will boost the 100 - 200 Hz range in your tweaking sessions (using that monitor) because that is what it will need to sound good. Then if you go to a venue where the FOH is heavy in the 100 - 200 Hz area, then you will have a very bass heavy guitar tone. The opposite is also true. If your monitor exaggerates a certain frequency range, you will tend to attenuate that range in an effort to make your tone sound right. But if the FOH is deficient in that area, you will have a big hole in your tone. The more balanced your tone is going to the FOH, the better chance you will have that your tone in the FOH will sound good.
 
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This theory goes out the window when you see all the tweaking that goes on to get a decent sound out of some of the high end FRFR monitors.

Just look at the threads .. Thread upon thread of folks frustrated trying to dial in their monitor.

which then begs another question...

Is the Axe-Fx so out of line with "Über flat" monitors that you have to tweak the shit out of it to make it sound good?

That was not my experience with all the FRFR monitors I owned and it certainly is not my experience when I use the Axe-FX with real cabs.



That is why it is best if your monitor is as flat response as possible. Then your tones going to the FOH will be as balanced as possible, which should yield your best chance of a good tone in the FOH. Look at it this way: if your monitor is deficient in a frequency range - let's say for the sake of this discussion it is deficient from 100 Hz to 200 Hz. You will boost the 100 - 200 Hz range in your tweaking sessions (using that monitor) because that is what it will need to sound good. Then if you go to a venue where the FOH is heavy in the 100 - 200 Hz area, then you will have a very bass heavy guitar tone. The opposite is also true. If your monitor exaggerates a certain frequency range, you will tend to attenuate that range in an effort to make your tone sound right. But if the FOH is deficient in that area, you will have a big hole in your tone. The more balanced your tone is going to the FOH, the better chance you will have that your tone in the FOH will sound good.
 
You are forgetting the "room factor". Every room is different, and every spot in the room is different. Even two feet away is very different.
 
You are forgetting the "room factor". Every room is different, and every spot in the room is different. Even two feet away is very different.

There are more variable to contend with than a Shuttle launch ... :lol

Probably one of the main reasons why I like real cabs with my Axe-Fx. It is really hard to screw things up.
 
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I can understand if it is your back line -- but once you send the patch you tweaked for the monitor to FOH -- what the audience hears will be different than what you are hearing from your monitor.


Which to me begs the question why bring a high end FRFR monitor to a gig if you are going FOH?

Personal monitoring. The idea behind the design of the CLR is to be very flat frequent-wise, so that you get the least amount of coloration possible. A PA at a club should have a similar goal and should ideally be tweaked to balance the inadequacies of the room (to achieve a flat room response). This, of course, is often not the case as club PAs are not always well maintained or designed, BUT it is eliminating a few variables that could be causing issues, for example, a bad mic or poor placement, a crap backline, ect. The elimination of a 4x12 in regard to stage volume alone is fantastic! A 4x12 is naturally going to put out a lot of bottem end that needs to get cut anyway by FOH, but its still there on stage, bleeding into other mics and creating feedback, stepping on what the bass player is doing. So the benefits, in my mind, out way the negatives. But certainly the logic is there to support what others are saying.

I used to bring my Triple Rec and my Mesa standard oversized 4x12 to shows with me, but the amount volume needed to make the amp 'feel' nice made it WAY to loud on stage. And the low end would mask and fight with the bass player, not out in front, but onstage where we were standing. If I had had a decent personal monitor and an axe fx back then, I would have had MUCH less stage volume and I would have been a happy camper. All that being said, I am very accustomed to hearing guitars through near field monitors and playback systems so the lack of low end punch/'in room' sound doesnt bother me.
 
There are more variable to contend with than a Shuttle launch ... :lol

Probably one of the main reasons why I like real cabs with my Axe-Fx. It is really hard to screw things up.

Totally agree with there being SO MANY variables. But to each his own I guess, as I have the complete opposite view point. To me, its a lot easier to dial the sound I like in on the axe fx and a "flat" monitor and go FOH. I personally hate hearing the cab behind me and then an additional floor monitor in front. It causes phase issues, especially when you start moving around.
 
Its irrelevant what the CLR's sound like to a sound guy because he wont hear them and he isn't bothered, you set your patches up the best you feel, you play through your monitor, the sound guy, as usual, will do what the f**k he wants with whatever you give him, end of story, only this time you have some control over how you sound to yourself rather than getting bog standard SM57 into an ancient floor wedge.

Jesus, CLR threads on here are worse than Gibson threads on guitar forums.
 
From my perspective it involves going to FOH and whether you are better off tweaking your preset to your PA (if you own one) instead of sending a patch that was tweaked to a particular FRFR monitor (regardless of brand) you use at home.


Its irrelevant what the CLR's sound like to a sound guy because he wont hear them and he isn't bothered, you set your patches up the best you feel, you play through your monitor, the sound guy, as usual, will do what the f**k he wants with whatever you give him, end of story, only this time you have some control over how you sound to yourself rather than getting bog standard SM57 into an ancient floor wedge.

Jesus, CLR threads on here are worse than Gibson threads on guitar forums.
 
From my perspective it involves going to FOH and whether you are better off tweaking your preset to your PA (if you own one) instead of sending a patch that was tweaked to a particular FRFR monitor (regardless of brand) you use at home.

I totally get that but its no different with an amp, we play with our own 1000w PA and have to tweak the PA EQ when the cabs are mic'd up which means if we are using cabs for on stage monitoring they probably wont sound as good as we would like but thats the trade off. Before using the Axe Fx I used a small vocal monitor from TC Helicon that integrates to my mic stand as if we had any house wedges they were usually ass, I had total control of my vocal monitoring despite what any sound guy was doing, I don't sing anymore but I use the CLR in exactly the same way, my mix is my mix, its loud enough, clear enough and sounds great, even if now I go through our own PA I'll just use the desk EQ to get us sounding right by standing out front on a 20 foot cable, I know my sound is good to start with so it takes minutes to sort out, no more messing with mic stands, distances from grilles, different mics at different venues etc.
 
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