How to think about channels

Dave Merrill

Dave Merrill

Axe-Master
I'm new to Fractal, coming from 3 1/2 years on Helix. With Helix, any parameter you set to be controlled by the Scene Controller inherently has independent settings for each snapshot (snapshot are kind of equivalent to Axe scenes, mostly).

That's not the case with the Axe. Each block has a separate channel setting per scene, and block settings are by channel, not scene. Some block types have 4 channels, some less.

I don't quite get how to think about this. Say a preset has 4 scenes. For the blocks with 4 channels, you just make sure each scene uses the corresponding channel, and your scenes are effectively independent. For blocks with fewer channels, or presets with more than 4 scenes, they're not, channels have to be used for more than one scene.

Upshot of that is that when you're editing a block within a scene, ideally you'd do the research to know which other scenes will be affected. AFAIK the only way to do that is to switch to every other scene and examine the block there. And once you know that, it's still true -- the scenes really aren't independent.

I'm very very much enjoying the Axe, but this is a PITA, and I don't have a good mental model of how to work with it.

Thoughts?
 
I think of scenes and channels as totally different things.
In general I think it’s best to think of scenes as a switcher unit. You can use it to toggle multiple FX on and off at the same time and you can use it to swap channels on multiple FX.
 
I have been struggling with this a bit myself.
I get the concept of scenes but have been avoiding the whole channel thing for now.
 
Look at it this way:
In the axe you basically have a rig (preset) made of programmable FX/amps each having four presets (channels) and you can recall them and bypass/activate the effects via a midi switcher which has 8 presets (scenes)
 
Dave Merrill said:
Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Let's take the Ibanez Jemini pedal. It's two pedals in a single housing.

If you translate that to the Drive block in your III, than the housing would be a Drive block, the first pedal would be channel A of that block, and the 2nd pedal would be Channel B.

(The III goes far beyond that. Because it provides four separate Drive blocks, and four channels per block, per preset!)

In every scene of the preset, you can determine which channel of the Drive block should be the active one.

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Are these two things equivalent?
1.) a preset with two amp blocks(say Vox and Marshall) where scene 1 turns off the Marshall leaving the vox and scene 2 turns off the Vox leaving the Marshall

2. a preset with one amp block where channel A is a vox and channel B is a Marshall where scene 1 turns on channel A and scene 2 turns on channel B

If so, is one way better than the other?
 
They're equivalent except for a short audio gap when you switch channels, but it's really short and most users (including me) are fine with that.
 
Shredology said:
Are these two things equivalent?
1.) a preset with two amp blocks(say Vox and Marshall) where scene 1 turns off the Marshall leaving the vox and scene 2 turns off the Vox leaving the Marshall

2. a preset with one amp block where channel A is a vox and channel B is a Marshall where scene 1 turns on channel A and scene 2 turns on channel B

If so, is one way better than the other?
Click to expand...

One more probable difference... I haven’t tested it, but I’m nearly certain that the preset with two amp blocks will use more CPU.
 
Shredology said:
I have been struggling with this a bit myself.
I get the concept of scenes but have been avoiding the whole channel thing for now.
Click to expand...
You can't avoid channels, they're foundational if you're using scenes.

Say you set input gain on an amp to 4 in scene 1, then switch to scene 2 and set it to 8. Unless you switch the amp to a different channel in scene 2 first, you just changed the gain in scene 1 also. Scenes don't have separate settings, channels do.

Since there are more scenes than channels, if you use all 8 scenes you're inherently going to be using the same channel for more than 1 scene, and settings for each block will be shared between all scenes using the same channel. As I said in my original question, you always have to check which other scenes are using the channel you're editing, so you know which scenes will be affected.

TBH, this seems unnecessarily convoluted. Separate settings for each scene would be way more manageable.

I don't get the big advantage of channels, other than saving a few bits of storage.
 
Dave Merrill said:
You can't avoid channels, they're foundational if you're using scenes.

Say you set input gain on an amp to 4 in scene 1, then switch to scene 2 and set it to 8. Unless you switch the amp to a different channel in scene 2 first, you just changed the gain in scene 1 also. Scenes don't have separate settings, channels do.

Since there are more scenes than channels, if you use all 8 scenes you're inherently going to be using the same channel for more than 1 scene, and settings for each block will be shared between all scenes using the same channel. As I said in my original question, you always have to check which other scenes are using the channel you're editing, so you know which scenes will be affected.

TBH, this seems unnecessarily convoluted. Separate settings for each scene would be way more manageable.

I don't get the big advantage of channels, other than saving a few bits of storage.
Click to expand...
Here’s an easy way to accomplish what you’re wanting to do.

Set your amp the way you like it in channel A. Then click the arrow next to channel and copy channel A to channel B, copy channel A to channel C, copy channel A to channel D. This way, you’ve got the same amp settings in all four channels.

Then like you said, correspond the amp channel with the scene number and save it. Then go to whatever scene you want and put the input drive where you want it and tweak the level control so that all scene volumes are equal.

If you really need 8 different amp settings across 8 scenes, just add a second amp block (make sure to set bypass mode to mute on all amps). Click on Amp 1 and copy (command C) and then Click on Amp 2 and paste (command v). Now you can tweak those amp settings as well for a total of 8 different amp settings for each scene.

Now go to scenes 1-4 and bypass Amp 1 (make sure all amp channels bypass state is set to mute), then go to scenes 5-8 and bypass Amp 1. It’s rare that you’d need 8 different amp settings for a single preset, but if you did, this is an easy way to do it without programming scene controllers.
 
OP: Once you get the concept of channels down there is another thing wrt scenes. There are two ‘scene controllers’ in the Axe using the scene controllers actually side steps the requirement for channels to vary parameters they’re applied to... and their use can negate some of the things other folks have said here regarding limitations of scenes.
 
zenaxe said:
OP: Once you get the concept of channels down there is another thing wrt scenes. There are two ‘scene controllers’ in the Axe using the scene controllers actually side steps the requirement for channels to vary parameters they’re applied to... and their use can negate some of the things other folks have said here regarding limitations of scenes.
Click to expand...

Oh boy, my head is starting to hurt:veryconfused:
 
Dave Merrill said:
You can't avoid channels, they're foundational if you're using scenes.

Say you set input gain on an amp to 4 in scene 1, then switch to scene 2 and set it to 8. Unless you switch the amp to a different channel in scene 2 first, you just changed the gain in scene 1 also. Scenes don't have separate settings, channels do.

Since there are more scenes than channels, if you use all 8 scenes you're inherently going to be using the same channel for more than 1 scene, and settings for each block will be shared between all scenes using the same channel. As I said in my original question, you always have to check which other scenes are using the channel you're editing, so you know which scenes will be affected.

TBH, this seems unnecessarily convoluted. Separate settings for each scene would be way more manageable.

I don't get the big advantage of channels, other than saving a few bits of storage.
Click to expand...

I get what you are saying now and I agree.
I have been avoiding channels thus far by simply switching to a different preset when I have a function that needs to change more than just on/off.
 
Dave Merrill said:
the scenes really aren't independent
Click to expand...
There were never claimed to be and aren't designed that way. They hold a state for all the blocks in a preset. If you use the same block and channel definition in two scenes, necessarily those states share some context. If you want independence, you want presets.
 
I'll investigate scene controllers....... as I was confused by not being able to save scenes in my rant yesterday. ;)
 
zenaxe said:
OP: Once you get the concept of channels down there is another thing wrt scenes. There are two ‘scene controllers’ in the Axe using the scene controllers actually side steps the requirement for channels to vary parameters they’re applied to... and their use can negate some of the things other folks have said here regarding limitations of scenes.
Click to expand...
There are actually four Scene Controllers...
 
Dave Merrill said:
You can't avoid channels, they're foundational if you're using scenes.

Say you set input gain on an amp to 4 in scene 1, then switch to scene 2 and set it to 8. Unless you switch the amp to a different channel in scene 2 first, you just changed the gain in scene 1 also. Scenes don't have separate settings, channels do.
Click to expand...
For stuff like this, you might want to use a Scene Controller rather than Channels. This exact scenario of amp input gain change is covered in the manual page 153. You don't have to use channels when using scenes, cus scenes do more than just switch block channels.
TBH, this seems unnecessarily convoluted. Separate settings for each scene would be way more manageable.

I don't get the big advantage of channels, other than saving a few bits of storage.
Click to expand...
There might not be an advantage for you, depends on how you use it. It's really powerful for me.
But yeah, if there were 8 channels for every block, effectively one for every scene, I agree it would've helped simplify things.
 
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Here is a way to think about and explain channels that I have used again and again.

The name CHANNEL comes from the world of TV and radio, where different channels would broadcast different content.

Picture a top of the line late 80s rackmount rig. Yes, it was glorious. Resist drooling down memory lane. What you have now is better.

On that old rig, your amp head was a switchable 4-channel preamp. It had four CHANNELS. You'd dial each channel in as desired. Set it and forget it.

You also had a bunch of other gear. You programmed a few different favorite pre-set settings in your Lexicon. Think of these as CHANNELS (though they weren't called this). You had other rackmount effects. Maybe they had their own channel-like settings (SPX90) or maybe they had one setting and a bypass/engage switch (Tri-Stereo-Chorus). You had various pedals with only one setting, but they could be switched in or out.

Now, in this old rig, everything is wired together and a foot controller is used to burst messages to all of the different pieces of connected gear. In the foot controller, these sets of instructions could be saved, allowing you to load up different sound scene presets. We call them SCENES on the Axe-Fx III because a preset is the rig itself. Here are a few examples from the old world:

Tap #1: Clean Chorus
Hey Amp Head! Change to your Clean Channel!
Hey Lexicon! Give me that sweet AMBIENCE sound.
Hey DBX! Hey Tri-Stereo Chorus rack! Engage please.
All Pedals: Bypass please.

Tap #2: Rhythm
Amp Head! Change to your Crunch Channel!
SPX90: Just a little dual detune please.
Everybody else: Bypass please. Let's keep this one pretty raw.

Tap #3: Lead
Amp Head! Change to your Lead Channel!
Hey Lexicon! Gimme Circular Delays.
Boost Pedal: Engage!
Everybody else: Stand down.

Tap #4: Clean Lead
Amp Head! Change to your Clean Channel!
Lexicon! Gimme Circular Delays.
SPX90: Ducked reverb please.
Boost Pedal: Engage!
Everybody else: Bypass.

Notice how scenes #1 and #4 use a shared amp channel but produce totally different sounds because other effects and settings have changed? The Axe-Fx III works on this same principle. A CHANNEL is a unique group of sound settings allowing you to have four times the number of settings from a single block.

In my experience building and supporting pro rigs, I have found that most people find this to be SUPERIOR to the per-parameter snapshot approach, because it behaves more like traditional equipment. What some see as a con (less granularity) becomes a pro when you can change a channel in one place and have it update automatically across all scenes that use it. Wait... You want a truly unique sound setting in just one scene? Use a different channel (or even a different block)! You say want that feature from your Brand-L unit where a parameter can have a different value in every scene? Check out SCENE CONTROLLERS which allows exactly this.

So in short, don't try to correlate Channels A,B,C,D with Scenes 1,2,3,4. Instead, build your first scene, then decide what you need for your second scene and build that, and so on. If you run out (pretty unlikely) get creative and delve into the advanced features.

Remember, in the same way you are always using at least one scene even when you never change scenes, you are likewise always using one channel per block even if you never plan to change channels. Most presets have most effects set to channel A.

I'll also note that the number of top pros who don't use any of this. They just switch presets and no one notices the very short gap. There are obvious exceptions, where everything is "under the microscope" by not only the artist, but others as well.
 
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