How to simulate modern pick ups?

The one thing I wish we could do in the Axe Fx is to be able to insert a pickup block. I know it's been talked about before and thrashed about. But there are some brilliant minds on this forum and at Fractal and I'm certain that with todays technology it would come close. HEY, YA GOTTA START SOMEWHERE. Look what Cliff has done in the past 10 years. REINVENTED OUR INDUSTRY. I'd LOVE to insert a 59LP pickup into my Tele patch. Or a Strat pickup into my LP patch. The options are endless. But I can only wish cause

"I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me.
He's just a poor boy from a 60s family.
I don't have the techie skills, analogs' reality.
He's just an old guy, the analog family.
 
JT2 said:
The one thing I wish we could do in the Axe Fx is to be able to insert a pickup block. I know it's been talked about before and thrashed about. But there are some brilliant minds on this forum and at Fractal and I'm certain that with todays technology it would come close. HEY, YA GOTTA START SOMEWHERE. Look what Cliff has done in the past 10 years. REINVENTED OUR INDUSTRY. I'd LOVE to insert a 59LP pickup into my Tele patch. Or a Strat pickup into my LP patch. The options are endless.
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The problem is the block would have to compensate for the pickups you're currently using. One approach is to use a Tone Match block at the front of the chain and try matching the DI'd guitar signal of a guitar that has pickups you like. I've never tried it, but my hunch is it would at least capture the frequency response of the pickups.
 
Jason Scott said:
One approach is to use a Tone Match block at the front of the chain and try matching the DI'd guitar signal of a guitar that has pickups you like. I've never tried it, but my hunch is it would at least capture the frequency response of the pickups.
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It will partially capture the frequency response. But how do you define the frequency response of a pickup? The response to your open top string playing an E will be very different from the response to playing the same note at the 24th fret if your bottom string.
 
Rex said:
It will partially capture the frequency response. But how do you define the frequency response of a pickup? The response to your open top string playing an E will be very different from the response to playing the same note at the 24th fret if your bottom string.
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How do you think the frequency response of an amplified guitar signal is captured?
 
Jason Scott said:
How do you think the frequency response of an amplified guitar signal is captured?
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The point is that pickups have a different frequency response for each string. How will you capture multiple responses in a tone match?
 
Rex said:
The point is that pickups have a different frequency response for each string. How will you capture multiple responses in a tone match?
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Have you ever used tone match or EQ matching software? Each string resonates at a different frequency and tone matching captures the entire spectrum.
 
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I think there is some misunderstanding. Rex is trying to state that the pickup reacts differently to each of the 6 (7 or 8) strings on your guitar. The only way for any input device to know what string you're hitting would be a MIDI device attached to your saddle or bridge.
 
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Stillbruch said:
I think there is some misunderstanding. Rex is trying to state that the pickup reacts differently to each of the 6 (7 or 8) strings on your guitar. The only way for any input device to know what string you're hitting would be a MIDI device attached to your saddle or bridge.
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It doesn't need to know the frequency response of each individual string. It's completely unnecessary for EQ matching to work. Tone matching simply compares the entire frequency response of both spectrums (source and reference) and compensates for the differences. The low E string doesn't occupy the same sonic space as the A string, however because you're capturing the entire spectrum it's not necessary for the software to identify the FR of individual strings.
 
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You don't need to explain how tone matching works. I think you are just using a different approach to match different PU. You'd like to match the linear spectrum of the whole signal, while Rex's states that in order to simulate another PU, your approach wouldn't suffice since PUs are more than just EQs on the whole signal.

@Rex: Please chime in. Not sure if I got you right.
 
Stillbruch said:
while Rex's states that in order to simulate another PU, your approach wouldn't suffice since PUs are more than just EQs on the whole signal.
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This is precisely why I originally stated, "it would at least capture the frequency response of the pickups." However, reproducing the frequency response will go a long way toward simulating a pickup, as evidenced by EQ matching two guitars with different pickups in general.
 
Jason Scott said:
Have you ever used tone match or EQ matching software?
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Yes.

Tone matching works wonderfully when there is a single transfer function to be matched. But for a given pickup, there are six different transfer functions (more if you have more than six strings). Pickup placement gives you an even broader selection of transfer functions—but a tone match can only give you one transfer function.

Example: select the neck pickup on a Strat. Play an open high E. You'll get a certain audio response. Now play exactly the same frequency with a harmonic at the fifth fret of the low E string. You'll get almost no response, because at that frequency, the neck pickup is located at a node on that string. So which response should your tone match give? It can't give both, but it would need both responses to be accurate. That's why I said it would only capture part of the frequency response.


EDIT: corrected "fifth."
 
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Stillbruch said:
You don't need to explain how tone matching works. I think you are just using a different approach to match different PU. You'd like to match the linear spectrum of the whole signal, while Rex's states that in order to simulate another PU, your approach wouldn't suffice since PUs are more than just EQs on the whole signal.

@Rex: Please chime in. Not sure if I got you right.
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That's mostly it. A pickup doesn't offer just a single frequency response. It's different for each string.
 
Rex said:
Example: select the neck pickup on a Strat. Play an open high E. You'll get a certain audio response. Now play exactly the same frequency with a harmonic at the seventh fret of the low E string. You'll get almost no response, because at that frequency, the neck pickup is located at a node on that string.
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Look at the frequency response of both on a spectrum analyzer. Do they occupy the same space? No, they do not. That's the point.
 
Rex said:
Define "space."
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Look on a spectrum analyzer and play the open high E string. Observe the active frequency response. Now, play the 7th fret low-E harmonic. Do they share the same frequency range? No. The fundamental frequencies for each are different. As expected, the open high E is well above 2KHz while the harmonic is under 500Hz.
 
Jason Scott said:
The fundamental frequencies for each are different. As expected, the open high E is well above 2KHz while the harmonic is under 500Hz.
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It's 330 and 247 Hz, but I think Rex probably meant 5th fret low E harmonic.

Anyway, a pickup tone match should work best with similar pickup type and position, playing the same part for each signal. The open & harmonic spectrums being different doesn't indicate anything about whether a convincing pickup tone match is possible.
 
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Jason Scott said:
Look on a spectrum analyzer and play the open high E string. Observe the active frequency response. Now, play the 7th fret low-E harmonic. Do they share the same frequency range? No. The fundamental frequencies for each are different. As expected, the open high E is well above 2KHz while the harmonic is under 500Hz.
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As @Bakerman spotted, I meant the 5th fret, but typed "7th." :oops:

And yes, the fundamentals of both notes will be 330 Hz.
 
Same issue with cabs. In order to replicate a mic'd cab, especially when the room reverb is a big part of the sound, every note and chord needs its own tone match because the actual spectrum for each of them is unique and can vary a lot on single notes and muted strings. Then it sounds fluid and perfect, with those fat perfect single notes. I had some fun years ago tonematching note by note a riff, it ridiculed the "average IR" I did from said riff. Ideally, the simulator should learn to recognize every note of a guitar, then use in real time the proper IR from a complete bank. Sounds crazy right? Maybe that's what a pickup-match also needs. But for now it's science fiction.
 
Bakerman said:
It's 330 and 247 Hz
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The fundamental of the open high E is above 2KHz as well as 330Hz. The 5th fret low E harmonic is down around your cited range, however.

Bakerman said:
Anyway, a pickup tone match should work best with similar pickup type and position, playing the same part for each signal.
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That sounds about right. To match any particular guitar signal, you'd want the source to sound as close as possible to the target prior to invoking the tone match.
 
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