How to simulate modern pick ups?

[Rex]

True. But when you're trying to change all six variations to emulate one pickup with another, that's beyond the capabilities of a single tone match. To do that correctly, you'd need six different inputs from the guitar, and you'd need six Tone Match blocks—one to process each string.

 

[Jason Scott]

But in normal use, the Tone Match only has to capture the frequency response of the amp and cab.

Pickups influence the frequency response of the strings either way.

 

[Rex]

Pickups influence the frequency response of the strings either way.

Yes, but if you're trying to tone-match a pickup—to make one system with six transfer functions sound like another system with six different transfer functions—all six of the possible responses to a frequency must be tone-matched.

 

[Jason Scott]

Yes, but if you're trying to tone-match a pickup—to make one system with six transfer functions sound like another system with six different transfer functions—all six of the possible responses to a frequency must be tone-matched.

Again, the frequency response of those six strings is influenced by the pickups before the amp and after the cab. It doesn't matter. Pluck a string before and after adjusting a polepiece. There's a difference. Same applies to pickup height in general.

 

[Rex]

I guess we'll just just have to agree to disagree. In running out of words to convey my point.

 

[Bakerman]

Yes, but if you're trying to tone-match a pickup—to make one system with six transfer functions sound like another system with six different transfer functions—all six of the possible responses to a frequency must be tone-matched.

I think you're making an error jumping to the conclusion that six tone matches would be needed. The fact that different strings sound different playing the same note doesn't really mean anything. It doesn't tell you whether one EQ can make some pickup's tone reasonably close to another.

 

[Rex]

I think you're making an error jumping to the conclusion that six tone matches would be needed. The fact that different strings sound different playing the same note doesn't really mean anything. It doesn't tell you whether one EQ can make some pickup's tone reasonably close to another.

So be accurate, wouldn't you need to account for the differences between all six responses? You have two pickups, A and B. For the pitch E4, the response of pickup B on the top string differs from pickup A's response by 3 dB. Pickup B's response to the same pitch on the second string differs from A by 5 dB. The response to the same pitch on the bottom string differs by 10 dB.

Tone-matching endeavors to apply a difference in frequency response. How can a single tone match account for all six differences at the same frequency?

 

[Bakerman]

So be accurate, wouldn't you need to account for the differences between all six responses? You have two pickups, A and B. For the pitch E4, the response of pickup B on the top string differs from pickup A's response by 3 dB. Pickup B's response to the same pitch on the second string differs from A by 5 dB. The response to the same pitch on the bottom string differs by 10 dB.

Tone-matching endeavors to apply a difference in frequency response. How can a single tone match account for all six differences at the same frequency?

What if the different pickup didn't do that?

"E4 sounds different on each string" is obvious on any guitar, but it doesn't indicate whether your example would be typical for a pickup swap.

Notes might have different levels and give the impression that something like that is happening when it's still a static EQ change. Imagine adding a notch at 330 Hz. That will greatly reduce level of a 24th fret note on the low E (dull tone, low harmonic levels), but for an open high E it will be pretty loud (but thinner) since there's a lot more harmonic content. A tone match would capture that sort of thing fine.

 

[Rex]

What if the different pickup didn't do that?

"E4 sounds different on each string" is obvious on any guitar, but it doesn't indicate whether your example would be typical for a pickup swap.

Notes might have different levels and give the impression that something like that is happening when it's still a static EQ change. Imagine adding a notch at 330 Hz. That will greatly reduce level of a 24th fret note on the low E (dull tone, low harmonic levels), but for an open high E it will be pretty loud (but thinner) since there's a lot more harmonic content. A tone match would capture that sort of thing fine.

I think in most cases, a different pickup would have a good chance of doing that. A given frequency on one string at a given pickup position has a different wavelength on another string, and the pickup will be closer to or farther from a node or maximum. And different pickups have different apertures, which will make those differences more noticeable or less, depending on the pickup and its position.

Can tone-matching a pickup get you close enough? Sure. I've said as much:

My results with tone-matching pickups themselves have been approximate at best. Useful approximations, to be sure. Even some that were convincing in a live situation. But none that were spot-on.

But I don't see how it can be identical to the source.

 

[Jason Scott]

But I don't see how it can be identical to the source.

Again, the same issues related to matching the response of a signal before the amp (DI) also exist at the output stage of a rig. The frequency response of an amp and cab is influenced by the pickups, which undoubtedly affects the frequency response of individual strings. Use practically any amp and cab you want in the Axe and listen to the difference before and after changing the height of one or more polepieces for (a) specific string(s).

 

[Rex]

The frequency response of an amp and cab is influenced by the pickups,...

Nope.

 

[Jason Scott]

Nope.

Uh, yes, change the pickups (or the height thereof) and the frequency response of a rigs output will change, obviously. That's precisely why people buy new pickups or adjust the height of theirs. Why you'd disagree with that is anyone's guess, but it's so painfully obvious it hardly deserves verification.

 

[Rex]

Uh, yes, change the pickups (or the height thereof) and the frequency response of a rigs output will change...

If you change the pickups, the amp/cab's output will change, but the its frequency response remains the same. It's applying the same frequency response to a different input.

 

[Jason Scott]

If you change the pickups, the amp/cab's output will change, but the its frequency response remains the same. It's applying the same frequency response to a different input.

You stated, "in normal use, the Tone Match only has to capture the frequency response of the amp and cab."

EQ matching captures the frequency response of a speakers output, which can be augmented by several factors, one of them being your pickups in this case. The difficulties you attribute to matching the frequency response of a pickup due to the challenges of capturing the frequency response of each individual string of a DI should apply just as well to the output stage (eg. when capturing the frequency response of a rig) considering the tone coming out of the speakers (ie. cab) is, in part, the product of your pickups(and thus the frequency response of each individual string).

The bottom line is, accurately matching the frequency response of a rig doesn't involve multiple transfer functions at the output stage despite the fact that each string's frequency response shapes the tone of a rig in the same way they shape the tone of a DI and thus should present the same challenges you originally suggested in regards to capturing the frequency response of the latter. It doesn't, and as such there's no reason to believe it makes any difference at all.

 

[Rex]

You stated, "in normal use, the Tone Match only has to capture the frequency response of the amp and cab."

Yes. "Normal use" being tone-matching the amp/cab.

EQ matching captures the frequency response of a speakers output...

No. EQ matching captures the difference in frequency response of the system being matched and the system you're applying the match to. There's no such thing as the frequency response of an output; frequency response only makes sense when comparing a system's output to its input.

The difficulties you attribute to matching the frequency response of a pickup due to the challenges of capturing the frequency response of each individual string at the input stage should apply just as well to the output stage...

Nope. For a given amp/cab setting, its frequency response is fixed and does not change as the input changes.

...the tone coming out of the speakers (ie. cab) is, in part, the product of your pickups(and thus the frequency response of each individual string).

True.

The bottom line is, accurately matching the frequency response of a rig doesn't involve multiple transfer functions at the output stage...

True again, if you define "rig" as the amp/cab combination.

...each string's frequency response shapes the tone of a rig the same way it shapes the tone of a DI...

Also true.

...and thus should present the same challenges you originally suggested in regards to capturing the frequency response of a DI.

But EQ matching doesn't capture a tone. It captures the difference between two tones.

Let's say you have two pickups, A and B. You play an open high-E string. The fundamental of that note is 330 Hz. On that string, pickup B's response is 4 dB hotter than pickup A at 330 Hz.

Then you play the same note on the fifth fret of the B string. But on that string, pickup B's response at 330 Hz is only 2 dB hotter than Pickup A's response. Which difference do you use for your tone match? 2 dB or 4 dB? You can't have both in a single tone match.


The frequency response of a system is unique to that system. It doesn't change when the input changes. The output of that system depends on both the frequency response of the system and the input to the system.

 

[Wolfenstein98k]

>things that matter
>this disagreement

Pick one

 

[Jason Scott]

Yes. "Normal use" being tone-matching the amp/cab.

You don't match an amp and cab in isolation, apart from a guitar and pickups.

No. EQ matching captures the difference in frequency response of the system being matched and the system you're applying the match to.

EQ matching captures the frequency response of both, source and target, and compensates for the differences, as stated in post #28.

There's no such thing as the frequency response of an output; frequency response only makes sense when comparing a system's output to its input.

From the Wiki:

"You can match either the output of an amp or the output of a cab". Tone Match can't compare and match either one without capturing their frequency response first.

For a given amp/cab setting, its frequency response is fixed and does not change as the input changes.

Add an amp and cab block to the grid with any combination you like and record a sample in your DAW of choice. Now, raise the pickups on your guitar as high as they'll go without touching the strings and then record another sample to a different track using the same amp and cab. Load FabFilter or some other EQ matching software and compare the frequency response of both tracks. Is it the same? No. Obviously the amplifier and cabinet are partly responsible for the frequency response discrepancies because the signal from the pickup wasn't recorded directly (ie. DI).

But EQ matching doesn't capture a tone.

I never said it captures a tone.

Let's say you have two pickups, A and B. You play an open high-E string. The fundamental of that note is 330 Hz. On that string, pickup B's response is 4 dB hotter than pickup A at 330 Hz.

Then you play the same note on the fifth fret of the B string. But on that string, pickup B's response at 330 Hz is only 2 dB hotter than Pickup A's response. Which difference do you use for your tone match? 2 dB or 4 dB? You can't have both in a single tone match.

To reiterate, those issues aren't exclusive to a DI signal. They apply just as well to the output stage (eg. when capturing the frequency response of a rig via EQ matching) as the tone coming out of the speakers (ie. cab) is in part the product of your pickups(and thus the frequency response of each individual string). If accurately matching the frequency response of a rig doesn't involve multiple transfer functions at the output stage and consequently doesn't present a problem for EQ matching software, then I have no reason to believe it would be any more of an issue where a DI signal is concerned.

In fact, forget EQ matching pickups for a minute. All you're really doing is EQ matching DI signals, which shouldn't present any more of an issue than matching a rig, assuming the tone of the target is within the ballpark of the source.

The frequency response of a system is unique to that system. It doesn't change when the input changes. The output of that system depends on both the frequency response of the system and the input to the system.

Let's avoid equivocation. You seem to be using frequency response to describe the audible frequency range that a speaker or device is able to reproduce(the standard definition as pertains to specs). However, I'm referring to the quantitative measure of the output spectrum of a device in response to a stimulus, the spectrum of which can vary depending on the input.

 

[Rex]

>things that matter
>this disagreement

Pick one

Lol

But it’s fun, though.

 

[Rex]

From the Wiki:

"You can match either the output of an amp or the output of a cab". Tone Match can't compare and match either one without capturing their frequency response first.

Absolutely. Tone Match is all about frequency response.

Add an amp and cab block to the grid with any combination you like and record a sample in your DAW of choice. Now, raise the pickups on your guitar as high as they'll go without touching the strings and then record another sample to a different track using the same amp and cab. Load FabFilter or some other EQ matching software and compare the frequency response of both tracks. Is it the same? No.

Tracks don’t have a frequency response. Systems with inputs and outputs do.

Let's avoid equivocation.

I don’t equivocate.

You seem to be using frequency response to describe the audible frequency range that a speaker or device is able to reproduce(the standard definition as pertains to specs).

I’m using the definition that’s taught in engineering schools worldwide.

However, I'm referring to the quantitative measure of the output spectrum of a device in response to a stimulus, the spectrum of which can vary depending on the input.

That’s output spectrum, not frequency response.

 

[Rex]

@Jason Scott : Upon further reflection, I can see your point about tone matching having to wrestle with the same vagaries of pickup response, whether you’re matching the amp/cab or just the pickups. That would render the challenges the same for both situations.

I still stand behind all the techie stuff I said, though.