How to simulate modern pick ups?

Fundamentals and harmonics aside, the point is you don't have to take the frequency response of individual strings into account to successfully match two guitar signals. I've been doing it successfully for years.
 
Enough to know that it's wonderfully accurate when a system can be characterized by a single transfer function.

I'm referring to a guitar signal involving all six strings, at times played independently, matched with a high degree of accuracy. If the source tone is in the ballpark of the target, the result can be practically indistinguishable.
 
I'm referring to a guitar signal involving all six strings, at times played independently, matched with a high degree of accuracy. If the source tone is in the ballpark of the target, the result can be practically indistinguishable.
I've had excellent results tone-matching amp rigs. The results were spot-on, to my ears, because there's a single transfer function involved, and the multiple transfer functions presented by the pickups were handled by...the pickups, which were still physically involved.

My results with tone-matching pickups themselves have been approximate at best. Useful approximations, to be sure. Even some that were convincing in a live situation. But none that were spot-on.
 
I've had excellent results tone-matching amp rigs. The results were spot-on, to my ears, because there's a single transfer function involved, and the multiple transfer functions presented by the pickups were handled by...the pickups, which were still physically involved.

My results with tone-matching pickups themselves have been approximate at best. Useful approximations, to be sure. Even some that were convincing in a live situation. But none that were spot-on.

As with rigs, the outcome of the latter is likely dependent on the tonal proximity of the source and target. I'd love to test the theory assuming I had a source of DI recordings of guitars with various pickups.
 
Here are the results of my first test using a Les Paul w/ HB's and an Ibanez V2 series DI sample from the Guitar Vaults collection.

First the original (unaltered) DI's of both:




Next a comparison using the sample of the Les Paul DI after tone matching:



See the next post for samples of the EQ matched DI's processed through Guitar Rig 5.
 
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Here's a comparison of the Les Paul's tone matched DI and Ibanez V2's DI processed through a preset using Guitar Rig 5:





Lastly, here's the original unmatched sample of the Les Paul DI processed through the same preset in Guitar Rig 5:

 
So, why'd I use Guitar Rig instead of the Axe FX? Simply out of convenience. It's nothing more than a proof of concept test. The Les Paul DI was matched using FabFilter's EQ Matching feature, then processed through Guitar Rig 5. However, there's no reason one couldn't achieve similar results using the Tone Match block first on the grid.
 
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Here are the results of my first test using a Les Paul w/ HB's and an Ibanez V2 series DI sample from the Guitar Vaults collection.

First the original (unaltered) DI's of both:




Next a comparison using the sample of the Les Paul DI after tone matching:



See the next post for samples of the EQ matched DI's processed through Guitar Rig 5.

Nice test with close results. In the tone match, you can still hear the Les Paul's mids come through on the middle strings, and there's a bit more emphasis of the treble timbre on the upper strings (compared to the Ibanez DI), but the results are good enough to be very useful, and about as close as you could hope for given the conflicting tone match requirements of the upper vs. middle strings.
 
Nice test with close results. In the tone match, you can still hear the Les Paul's mids come through on the middle strings, and there's a bit more emphasis of the treble timbre on the upper strings (compared to the Ibanez DI), but the results are good enough to be very useful, and about as close as you could hope for given the conflicting tone match requirements of the upper vs. middle strings.

Some of the aforementioned differences relate to inaccuracies in strumming reproduction, in my opinion. My technique isn't identical and thus will minimize or emphasize certain frequencies when more or less force is applied to the strings. I suspect the results would be far more consistent if I were able to play the guitars for both samples.
 
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I am missing something. We accept tone-matching as a concept for cabinets, yet not for pickups? I think the # of transfer functions is a red herring in this. The signal going into the speaker cabinet is still the signal from six different strings, albeit modified by the blocks between the input and the cabinet, but the tone matching still has to deal with differences in harmonics, volumes, attack and so on that come from the strings, the pickups and the player all combined.

Even more, I'd say that you're doing essentially the same thing in reverse at each end. At the pickup end, you're taking a complex fluctuation of a magnetic field and turning it into a complex fluctuation of a electrical signal. At the speaker end, you're taking a complex electrical signal and turning it into a complex fluctuation of a magnetic field. And just as you have multiple strings, supplying different zones of the harmonic spectrum, you might have a cross-over and multiple speakers rendering different zones of the harmonic spectrum.

The only difference with tone matching speakers is that you know the nature of the signal before and after the device you're tone matching. So to tone-match a pickup you'd need a reference signal to match against. So if you could have some kind of a contraption that allowed you to attach a reference pickup above the strings on a guitar, directly above the installed pickup, then you could measure the difference between the two signals. Of course, the two pickups would probably interact with each other and interfere with the measurements.
 
I am missing something. We accept tone-matching as a concept for cabinets, yet not for pickups? I think the # of transfer functions is a red herring in this...

The only difference with tone matching speakers is that you know the nature of the signal before and after the device you're tone matching.
The problem is, which version of the note do you use as a reference? Let’s say you want to find the pickup response for E4. Will you match the response to an open high-E string, or the response to the identical frequency at the 14th fret of the D string, or the response to the identical frequency at the 24th fret of the low-E string, or the response to the identical note played on any of the other three strings? That’s six different frequency responses to one frequency. How do you capture all six responses in one Tone Match?
 
The problem is, which version of the note do you use as a reference? Let’s say you want to find the pickup response for E4. Will you match the response to an open high-E string, or the response to the identical frequency at the 14th fret of the D string, or the response to the identical frequency at the 24th fret of the low-E string, or the response to the identical note played on any of the other three strings? That’s six different frequency responses to one frequency. How do you capture all six responses in one Tone Match?

The same way it captures the FR of all six strings in a signal that's amplified by an amp / cab in a typical preset. It's not 100% perfect, but assuming the tonal proximity of the source and target aren't too far apart, it works.
 
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The same way it captures the FR of all six strings in a signal that's amplified by an amp / cab in a typical preset.
But in normal use, the Tone Match only has to capture the frequency response of the amp and cab. That's just one transfer function. The six different frequency responses of the pickup are handled by the pickup itself. But if you're trying to tone-match a pickup, you'd have to tone-match all six of those...and two different pickups will have six different differences :) between those pickups—an impossible task for one Tone Match.
 
But in normal use, the Tone Match only has to capture the frequency response of the amp and cab. That's just one transfer function. The six different frequency responses of the pickup are handled by the pickup itself. But if you're trying to tone-match a pickup, you'd have to tone-match all six of those...and two different pickups will have six different differences :) between those pickups—an impossible task for one Tone Match.

I don't see this. If the note has a different harmonic structure due to the way it was played on the instrument, then that harmonic structure is going to track all the way through to the amp->speaker interface. So a note played on two different strings is going to appear different to the tone-matching algorithm no matter where it is.

The problem isn't the complexity of the input, it's the unknown nature of the input. With tone matching a speaker, you know the nature of the output to the speaker, then you feed the output from the speaker (from a microphone) back into the tone matching.
With a pickup, you can't do that, the input remains unknown.
 
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