How to keep drummer from bleeding into vocal mics?

Project Mayhem

Experienced
My drummer has been using a hybrid kit for the longest time. However, he felt he was missing nuances that he could only get with an acoustic snare so he switched back. The problem is it’s so F’n loud it’s bleeding into every other mic within a city block. I had to turn up loud enough last night to even hear myself and my ears are still ringing a day later. We are all on in ears, but even if I drop him out of my mix it still comes though all the vocal mics. I feel like we are missing something obvious as this has to be a common situation. Can’t be the first trio in small space.

Appreciate any feedback (pardon bad pun)
 
Has this been discussed with your drummer or does he live in blissful ignorance? Because the easiest solution is for him to revert back to what he was using previously.

Another solution I've seen being used is place plexiglass panels around the drummer. It's usually done in recording studios but I've seen it being used in some venues.
 
Has this been discussed with your drummer or does he live in blissful ignorance? Because the easiest solution is for him to revert back to what he was using previously.

Another solution I've seen being used is place plexiglass panels around the drummer. It's usually done in recording studios but I've seen it being used in some venues.

I agree on what was used previously. However, his counter is that he doesn’t get the dynamic range on the edrum that he can with an acoustic. I can relate as I need my cabinet to push enough to “feel” my guitar.
The Edrums were great from a sound control standpoint, but they would on occasion false trigger or some rooms would reflect and cause false triggers. He’s too cheap to spring for plexiglass unfortunately.

The other issue is he just beats the living shit out of them... he works in retail management and is usually angry at the world and takes it out on the drums for therapy.

It’s difficult because he’s a really good friend, but he’s never open to a suggestion that didn’t originate with him.
 
if audio is loud enough to get to the mic, it will get to the mic. there's nothing really to do about it. you can gate, but that could affect your vocal.

it's why on pro stages, the drums are SO far back. using a hyper-cardioid mic can help, but that means you have to be dead on that mic to sing into it, and monitors may have to be placed at 45 degree angle, not directly behind the mic like normal.

mic bleed is what it is. the mics are there to pickup audio, and if it's getting over there... that's it.
 
+1 on the shields. I also played with a drummer who only knew loud as a style. It was so bad the band got together and bought plexi shields. It paid two dividends: the obvious lower volume and the reflected barrage heading back at him caused him to ease off a little (maybe he could hear it better, not sure).

Acoustic drums sound awesome, but they are generally your volume floor. Loud drummer = loud stage and that’s no fun for the band or the audience. Thank goodness our current drummer is willing to stay on V-Drums.
 
+1 on the shields. I also played with a drummer who only knew loud as a style. It was so bad the band got together and bought plexi shields. It paid two dividends: the obvious lower volume and the reflected barrage heading back at him caused him to ease off a little (maybe he could hear it better, not sure).

Acoustic drums sound awesome, but they are generally your volume floor. Loud drummer = loud stage and that’s no fun for the band or the audience. Thank goodness our current drummer is willing to stay on V-Drums.
As a drummer, this sucks. I don’t play loudly, but one gig makes us use a shield. I can’t hear anything from the rest of the band at all if I even tap on a drum, and this gig doesn’t give the drummer a monitor. It’s a horrible situation. So I play louder and bring IEMs.

One day the shield broke so they took it down. I played quietly, like I naturally would for that venue. The manager said “wow without the shield it was quieter and sounded much better!”

Next week, the shield was back up. They said the other businesses need to see the shield up or they call the cops. So it literally just needs to be seen being used. No care for what the volume actually is.
 
I agree on what was used previously. However, his counter is that he doesn’t get the dynamic range on the edrum that he can with an acoustic. I can relate as I need my cabinet to push enough to “feel” my guitar.

Thing is, there is nice to have and there is need to have. I need to have the dynamic range or I need to have the feel of my guitar are nice to have things. Nice if you can get them. But if it means you start a volume war in the band, or on stage they are most definitely not need to have. As rick said, loud drummer = loud stage = no fun for everyone. Also, a drummer who can play at a normal volume is a drummer who has learned both discipline and who has dynamic range. Loud drummers on the other hand and who refuse to adapt have anger issues. Or ego issues. Just like loud guitarists.

The Edrums were great from a sound control standpoint, but they would on occasion false trigger or some rooms would reflect and cause false triggers. He’s too cheap to spring for plexiglass unfortunately.

With all due respect, as I don't know him personally, that makes him sound like a dick. It basically gives me the impression of someone who goes I don't like it, I want something else and I don't give a fuck about the rest of the band. Or the audience. If I were Glenn Fricker I would say then cut down on your drinking and tattoo budget, you cheap bum! Maybe you should post it as a viewers comment on his channel, I wouldn't be surprised if he would actually say it. Only less nicely.

The other issue is he just beats the living shit out of them... he works in retail management and is usually angry at the world and takes it out on the drums for therapy.

Maybe he should get a gym membership and work out his anger issues pumping iron? Oh wait, he's a cheap skate.

It’s difficult because he’s a really good friend, but he’s never open to a suggestion that didn’t originate with him.

Thing is though, the problem will not go away and it shouldn't be up to the rest of the band to fix his problem. Irritations among band members have a bad habit of both breaking up bands and ruining friendships. There's a reason why bands break up, and in 99.9% its not about money. Money is usually the symptom, but not the underlying cause. Again, without knowing him in person I'd say your options are limited. Either sit him down for a good chat and get him to fix his own mess (he wants to play like Cozy Powell, then he should be the one that makes sure it doesn't start a volume war), either you guys fix his mess for him (causing resentment towards him), either accept that this is how its going to be, get hearing protection, turn everything up and accept that there will be drum bleed all over the place (on the plus side no more need for a snare channel on your mixer), or either tell him its not going to work out and that its better to go your separate ways while you are still friends then before you really start killing each other. And tell his replacement that he must be willing to play edrums or be willing to drum quietly on his acoustic set.

These are your options. It's up to you to pick which one to go with. Before it destroys both your band and your friendship.

This is why I think that 99.9% of band breakups are not really about money. When you join a professional band its like joining a company. You don't have to be friends, your rights and duties are stipulated in the contract. You don't have to spend private time together and when you leave you never have to see them again. Most bands however are started by friends. Friendship is what sees them through the most difficult times. Friendship is also what makes them put up with each other's quirks and bad behaviors. But those get amplified when you go on the road and have to spend time together for 24-7. Friendship will see you through a lot of that. But friendship is not made out of granite. And even granite can be worn down. And while in a professional band work and private are separate, with friendship these become intertwined. And eventually the smallest irritations can grow into the most bitterest of hatreds. Take Black Sabbath. That band has gone through more lineup changes then the most prolific porn star. People have come and gone and come and gone again, but overall the bitterest divides have been between the four original members. For most of the musicians who were in it it was just a gig, a contract to play during a single album/tour. The original four on the other hand have called each other every name you can think of. And yet at one time originally they were all mates. Now I'm not making a case to only be in a professional band, because those can be about as fun as working for your average company. But do try to work on working out your irritations in a calm relaxed manner, before it ends up in shouting.
 
if Someone told me what to play, I would respectfully decline. If you try to force the drummer to play something he’s already discovered does not work for him, it can only end badly (unless there was already no life left in him!).
I suggest trying the thick plexi shields that are available - they really work well. I have a guitarist come here with a loud boutique amp ( yeah I know... I’ve akready suggested the axe Fx III and I’m pretty sure he’s making plans for that), and we use a shield in front of it - very effective. The difference between shield and no shield is significant in our monitoring and particularly the drum overheads. It’s not silent mind you.
Imagine if someone insisted you play through a pod 500 because they’d prefer it - bah! Thats the same as what some are suggesting you tell the drummer.
Thanks
Pauly
 
if Someone told me what to play, I would respectfully decline. If you try to force the drummer to play something he’s already discovered does not work for him, it can only end badly (unless there was already no life left in him!).
I suggest trying the thick plexi shields that are available - they really work well. I have a guitarist come here with a loud boutique amp ( yeah I know... I’ve akready suggested the axe Fx III and I’m pretty sure he’s making plans for that), and we use a shield in front of it - very effective. The difference between shield and no shield is significant in our monitoring and particularly the drum overheads. It’s not silent mind you.
Imagine if someone insisted you play through a pod 500 because they’d prefer it - bah! Thats the same as what some are suggesting you tell the drummer.
Thanks
Pauly

The analogy is flawed though. They're not asking him to play through a pod 500 because they prefer it but because its a necessity. And they're open to alternatives. The correct analogy is the asshole guitar player who absofragginlutely has to have his 100w Marshall stack on stage all cranked up, because he prefers its sound. Which is fine by itself. But not when the whole band, venues and audiences are suffering because of its volume. The asshole guitar player with his loud stack, and who refuses to do something about it, that the analogy. Now, if it were me and I could not afford an alternative I would pick up the Pod 500, until I manage to save up some money for a better alternative that would make everyone happy. But this guy refuses to give in and refuses to pay for plexi shields. And has basically dumped the problem into his bandmates lap saying: your problem, not mine. That is not a good productive way to engage with your bandmates.
 
However, his counter is that he doesn’t get the dynamic range on the edrum that he can with an acoustic. I can relate as I need my cabinet to push enough to “feel” my guitar.

Well there you go. You annoy him with your cabinet, he retaliates with a snare. Go to silent setup, everybody wins. Stop using a cabinet, he'll have more pressure on him to comply.
 
As a drummer, this sucks. I don’t play loudly, but one gig makes us use a shield. I can’t hear anything from the rest of the band at all if I even tap on a drum, and this gig doesn’t give the drummer a monitor. It’s a horrible situation. So I play louder and bring IEMs.

One day the shield broke so they took it down. I played quietly, like I naturally would for that venue. The manager said “wow without the shield it was quieter and sounded much better!”

Next week, the shield was back up. They said the other businesses need to see the shield up or they call the cops. So it literally just needs to be seen being used. No care for what the volume actually is.
No disagreement about that. When something isn’t needed, it is usually in the way. In the OPs case, it doesn’t appear the drummer in question has your sense of control and concern for band balance, hence my suggestion. Nothing cures everything.
 
I am assuming this is regarding drums bleeding into the mic within a live stage performance configuration.

The acrylic shields are really good for taming the beast. As a plus, all that volume of the bashed drum coming back at the drummer usually makes drummers refrain from giving death blows to the drum and you get a more nuanced performance as a result.

It's not that hard to make and is more economical too:
https://ourpastimes.com/how-to-make-a-drum-shield-12160835.html

As an alternative, if the acrylic shields are out of your price range, you can get a hypercardioid pattern mic like the Audio-Technica ATM 610 or Audix OM-7, or supercardioid mic like Electro-Voice (EV) N/D 757, and position the vocalist off center stage away from the snare.

The rejection of the tight pattern should help somewhat with bleed.

Of course, the simplest solution is to tell the drummer not to hit the snare like it's his worst enemy and let the mic do all the work. :smirk:

I would tell my friend, if you want to use the acoustic snare, then you gotta make the drum shield. If you don't want to make the drum shield, then you can't use the acoustic snare. those are the only two options and then he can decide what he wants to do.

If someone is thinking about himself more than the band, then you don't need him in the band, friend or no friend, because he will only cause more friction with that kind of continued thinking in the long run.
 
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Ugh. Been down this road before. I’m FAS and IEMs , and the drummer went Roland ( thank god ) and IEMs.

Peace and the best sounding live mix we could ask for. Almost had to go plexiglass cage setup too.

A lasting memory of dealing with the loud acoustic drums was doing a sound check out front with the lead singer and myself , using a wireless.
I’m running the PA. We are kinda on the loud side. Too loud really. Singer turns to me and says “Drums gotta come down a bit “
I turn to him and say “ Drums aren’t in the speakers yet “.
 
I turn to him and say “ Drums aren’t in the speakers yet “.
this is exactly what many people don't understand, usually the venue or restaurant manager.

drums are loud. they are. and it's exactly what they want - a presence. but "presence" means different things to different people. they think you can "turn down the drums." i've been told that SO many times as a drummer on gigs. and i usually just say "ok." and they usually think it's quieter.

so much of music performance is psychological. the venue managers are literally told "put this knob here, put this shield up, do this and that" without regard to actual sonic results. and if that list is done, they are "doing their job."

so i understand where they're coming from. and i don't try to lie to them ever, but sometimes they just need a smile and affirmation. if you can do what they need, definitely do it within reason.
 
Well there you go. You annoy him with your cabinet, he retaliates with a snare. Go to silent setup, everybody wins. Stop using a cabinet, he'll have more pressure on him to comply.

It wasn’t my cabinet that brought this on. That’s been the same for years now and has been pretty easy keep out of the mix. He just feels the Edrum doesn’t faithfully replicate his playing.
 
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