How to get warm round high end

Keith Loch said:
Chris, I have seen you make many comments to users since I have been on this form, so I assume you know a thing or 2 about the Axe. We all need treble, I am not trying to get rid of it, I am trying to smooth and round it. I have carpel tunnel so I play with a very light touch. I can't really dig into the strings, just don't have the finger strenght to make the highs round out through pressure, it that makes any sense?
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Have you tried using some light compression? I think I understand what you’re saying. And yes...digging in will round out the notes provided you are on an amp that behaves that way in the high end.
 
Test the Matrix with some pre recorded music, I had issues with my GT1000fx sounded like you describe. Had it checked out and it's fixed now.
 
Moke said:
True, but the 'Null' mic was added to the Axe-Fx II just to have access to the 'Proximity' affect (without a mic sim coloring the tone), which is in the Axe-Fx III.
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Proximity effect is part of the Cab block now, on one of the tabs.
 
I have no idea about the specifics of what's different about the modeling in the 8.00 beta, but it sounds so awesome.
 
skategeezer said:
What volume and tone pot values are you using? Also what pickups are those?
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Keith Loch said:
500k and either Dimarzio Breeds for Evolutions
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Do you you think it is possible to reduce the treble with 250k tone pot or a diff value in the tone cap?
This method can be used to bleed off some high end.

I have has this experience with other pickups in other guitars to smooth out the high end. I have not used the Breeds or Evo's so I cannot speak to what these values should be.

Also this may be possible with EQ in the CAB block or EQ block.
 
@Keith Loch there's a lot of variables here. I didn't see where you mention which VHT power amp that is. The 2902 uses KT88s and the 2502 uses EL34s. The 2502 is definitely a warmer of the two so I'm guessing that's what you're using - although the 2902 in low power mode will break up much earlier. The 2502 has a Class A A/B switch - that's going to make a difference. Both amps have presence, depth and voicing controls.

IOW, what you are comparing is the preamp modeling of some amp on the AxeIII with the power section of your VHT to the preamp and poweramp modeling of some amp on the AxeIII into what you hope is a power amp that isn't coloring the tone.

If we take the optimistic approach and assume the Matrix is not coloring the tone, you need to first find an amp that has a power section that resembles the VHT to some extent. You can adjust the poweramp configuration of the AxeIII quite a bit.

Given that you're adjusting two volumes on the power amps, I'm assuming you're running into a stereo cab. What I would do is connect one side to each power amp. Turn on power amp modeling globally. Fire up AxeEdit and create a patch with two amp block - one to Out1 and the other to Out2. On the one going to the VHT, turn Supply Sag fully counter clockwise on the power amp tab to disable power amp simulation completely for that amp. Dial it in how you like it. Switch to the other amp block and match the preamp settings. Now you can easily A/B by just muting/unmuting the two Amp blocks (set the Bypass Mode to Mute). Now go to town adjusting the power amp settings for the amp block going through the Matrix - I would suggest reading up on the power amp section of the amp block (starting on page 60 in the current manual) to adjust things that make some sense towards achieving your goal. The first thing I'd mess with is Presence - that's a powerful control.
 
So much information from everyone to digest. Once again, the goal of me posting the video of the VHT vs Matrix was to see if there are settings in the Axe3 that will get me the warmth of the VHT. Not because I want to go back and start using it, thing is to darn heavy. But every rack mount tube power amp I have used over the years (Mesa 50/50, Mesa 20/20, Tubeworks and even my original ADA Micro tube had a "warmth" to them and I just cannot get close to that warmth with the Axe and Matrix. Honestly at this point I am thinking you are all correct in saying the Axe can get there or at least close enough. I am really thinking there is a problem with the Matrix and I will be taking it to be looked at Friday. I plugged my Axe into a friends powered FRFR last night and then the FOH in our shared rehearsal studio and just went through some default high gain amps. None of which I would gig with but might be able to tweak to my statisfaction. When I started to turn those systems up they did not exhibit the degree of harshness the Matrix does.
 
hippietim said:
@Keith Loch there's a lot of variables here. I didn't see where you mention which VHT power amp that is. The 2902 uses KT88s and the 2502 uses EL34s. The 2502 is definitely a warmer of the two so I'm guessing that's what you're using - although the 2902 in low power mode will break up much earlier. The 2502 has a Class A A/B switch - that's going to make a difference. Both amps have presence, depth and voicing controls.

IOW, what you are comparing is the preamp modeling of some amp on the AxeIII with the power section of your VHT to the preamp and poweramp modeling of some amp on the AxeIII into what you hope is a power amp that isn't coloring the tone.

If we take the optimistic approach and assume the Matrix is not coloring the tone, you need to first find an amp that has a power section that resembles the VHT to some extent. You can adjust the poweramp configuration of the AxeIII quite a bit.

Given that you're adjusting two volumes on the power amps, I'm assuming you're running into a stereo cab. What I would do is connect one side to each power amp. Turn on power amp modeling globally. Fire up AxeEdit and create a patch with two amp block - one to Out1 and the other to Out2. On the one going to the VHT, turn Supply Sag fully counter clockwise on the power amp tab to disable power amp simulation completely for that amp. Dial it in how you like it. Switch to the other amp block and match the preamp settings. Now you can easily A/B by just muting/unmuting the two Amp blocks (set the Bypass Mode to Mute). Now go to town adjusting the power amp settings for the amp block going through the Matrix - I would suggest reading up on the power amp section of the amp block (starting on page 60 in the current manual) to adjust things that make some sense towards achieving your goal. The first thing I'd mess with is Presence - that's a powerful control.
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hippietim - "IOW, what you are comparing is the preamp modeling of some amp on the AxeIII with the power section of your VHT to the preamp and poweramp modeling of some amp on the AxeIII into what you hope is a power amp that isn't coloring the tone." This is true. Only because it was a way to demonstrate the round warm high end pick attack I am after. I would love to find and amp model in the Axe3 and run it with the Matrix and get that "warmth". Heck, I have a Johnson Millenium 150 that has a solid state power amp section that is able to get a nice warm round high end. I pray something is wrong with the Matrix as that would be an easy fix. Thanks for the input, oh, and the VHT is the 50 watt model.
 
Just found this thread. Read all the tips: EQ, IRs, no really EQ, no really really EQ, etc.

I’ve been through the same battle. I’ve spent a long time playing with EQ and IRs. I’m sure that they work for many people in many situations. They don’t work for me with single coils on a clean or near clean sound through my Q12. I can still hear a metallic edge to notes, a bit like strings fretting out.

Why? I believe that it is Magnetic coupling between the speaker coils and my pickups. Similar to what you get in a hall with a hearing aid loop. For a while I thought it was because I was on beam for the speaker cone. I proved it wasn’t that by walking further away, but still on beam.

You can check it for yourself if you’ve got this type of speaker. Use a high gain setting, and stand facing the speaker about a yard away with single coils. It hums. Turn your back to the speaker. It also hums. Turn sideways on and the hum reduces. You get a similar effect with higher frequencies when you play a note or a chord. It’s not a fault in the Matrix, it’s a property of the type of speaker.

My solution is to walk further away from the Matrix. If I can’t get that far away on a small stage then I have it at the side of me rather than in front or behind.
 
Op do you find 8.0 any better

Also there is an ouput setting frfr and one optimized for power amp cab
Make sure when you have matrix its setting is power amp
 
Roland said:
Just found this thread. Read all the tips: EQ, IRs, no really EQ, no really really EQ, etc.

I’ve been through the same battle. I’ve spent a long time playing with EQ and IRs. I’m sure that they work for many people in many situations. They don’t work for me with single coils on a clean or near clean sound through my Q12. I can still hear a metallic edge to notes, a bit like strings fretting out.

Why? I believe that it is Magnetic coupling between the speaker coils and my pickups. Similar to what you get in a hall with a hearing aid loop. For a while I thought it was because I was on beam for the speaker cone. I proved it wasn’t that by walking further away, but still on beam.

You can check it for yourself if you’ve got this type of speaker. Use a high gain setting, and stand facing the speaker about a yard away with single coils. It hums. Turn your back to the speaker. It also hums. Turn sideways on and the hum reduces. You get a similar effect with higher frequencies when you play a note or a chord. It’s not a fault in the Matrix, it’s a property of the type of speaker.

My solution is to walk further away from the Matrix. If I can’t get that far away on a small stage then I have it at the side of me rather than in front or behind.
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Metallic edge to the notes is a great way to describe it. Your post gave me a thought. I have a beat-er guitar that I threw some old pickups in and didn't care about the height or anything. I played that that thru the Matrix and it was much better. The height on these is about 5cm from the strings. So I routed out the holes a litter deeper on one of my gigging Peturrci Music Mans and adjusted the distance of the poles and while the tone is still not as round as with the VHT, it is better. The other gigging Petrucci has the pickups pretty standard distance from the strings and I still hear the metallic like highs. I did have the Matrix checked out and it is fine. Just bought the Koch ATR 4502 and hopefully that is a compromise between the Matrix and the VHT. Will let everyone what I think of it.
 
I think its the Matrix. I play through a CLR, and I've never had ice pick highs. Not once.

You should not have to do the deep tweaking that is being recommended...

I did have major harshness when I had the CLR subwoofer setting wrong. Thin and brittle.

And I do find certain SS power amps a tad harsh on the high end, like the Duncan 170. But nothing unbearable...
 
mikeyg said:
I think its the Matrix. I play through a CLR, and I've never had ice pick highs. Not once.

You should not have to do the deep tweaking that is being recommended...

I did have major harshness when I had the CLR subwoofer setting wrong. Thin and brittle.

And I do find certain SS power amps a tad harsh on the high end, like the Duncan 170. But nothing unbearable...
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CLR?
 
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