How to get warm round high end

Keith Loch said:
"Put a Filter block in front of the Output block" I have not tried a filter block, but I have a Par EQ after the amp block and swqashed freqs that way.
Click to expand...
Did you try using that PEQ with positive gain to hunt down those offending frequencies before you squashed them?
 
It should not be required to use any EQs or filters of any kind! If the Axe and the Matrix do, what they are supposed to do: deliver realistic sound, this should be doable solely by adjusting power amp values, because there's the only difference in the setup. @Keith Loch, have you dug deep into those? I'd do that before I'd use such "tricks".

Your VHT poweramp very likely sounds different than the simulated poweramp of the amp you're using in the Axe, so adjustments are very likely to be made.
 
axifist said:
It should not be required to use any EQs or filters of any kind! If the Axe and the Matrix do, what they are supposed to do: deliver realistic sound, this should be doable solely by adjusting power amp values, because there's the only difference in the setup. @Keith Loch, have you dug deep into those? I'd do that before I'd use such "tricks".

Your VHT poweramp very likely sounds different than the simulated poweramp of the amp you're using in the Axe, so adjustments are very likely to be made.
Click to expand...
+1.
Rex said:
As for the initial difference in pick attack that you noted in the video: we don't know what amp model you're using, so we don't know what power amp you're emulating, and we don't know how hard you're hitting that virtual power amp. So we have no basis to compare that against the VHT.
Click to expand...
 
Did ya try High Cutting before the Amp? Or in the Input EQ section of the amp block? You can bring a high cut there down to as low as 2,500k. Usually somewhere between 3-4.5kHz is the sweet spot for my ears. Or throw a FET Boost or FET Preamp Drive Block, (they’re both pretty transparent) and bring the High Cut down till ya like it. You don’t even have to use it to add gain, just turn the drive way down if ya like. This is just another way to smooth out your top end.
Also check your bright switch on your amp, if you’re using it, you can either turn it off or adjust the Frequency. And if I’m not mistaken I believe there is a deeper parameter that can adjust the frequency of the Presence control. Although it’s kind of unheard of to have to go through all these deep edits to dial in the top end. But then again, they are there for a reason, might as well use em if it gets ya where ya need to be.
 
Keith Loch said:
The more I turn up the Matrix, the more the highs get sharp, shrill, harsh, almost like a pinch harmonic and I only have the gain on 5 of the Splawn Qrod. I just don't get it, the VHT doesn't do this.
Click to expand...

I get that you understand the Fletcher-Munson effect, but this makes me think that it's playing more of a part than you might suspect ?
 
Keith Loch said:
Thanks again to everyone for their input. It is really appreciated. I messed around today with all the things suggested and just cannot get the warmth I want with the Matrix and power amp emulation. So I guess I am just going to use the Axe as a preamp/FX and lug my heavy VHT around. Although, I am not opposed to trying a different solid state power amp. Suggestions?
Click to expand...
Have you tried going into the effects loop return of any of you other amps? I would defintely suggest trying this if not.
 
Do you have another solid state amp you can try? Most solid state amps these days are pretty darn flat. Compare...
Have you ran some prerecorded music through the matrix and into the fr speakers? Does it get bright and harsh when you crank the matrix?
If you can, or maybe you know an electronics guy, run some pink noise into the matrix and put a dummy load on it. Check with an oscilloscope to insure the matrix is outputting what you put into it. But a comparison with another solid state amp will probably tell whether or not the matrix is ok.

If you are using a peq after the amp block and cutting frequency's above 1k substantially, you should be able to get the dullest sound imaginable. By tweaking the peq you should easily be able to get rid of objectionable frequency's. This might not get you the "Round Tone" your looking for but it should remove any bright and harsh frequency's. If you cannot achieve this, something is seriously wrong...

For "round..." .......or I would say "fat"
Turn the bright cap off...or lower it to where it just starts letting some hi's in. Big values let lower frequency's in. Letting hi freq's as low as 3k or 2k pass through can sound harsh in some cases, especially with the treble turned up.
Turn presence up instead, if needed. (the bright caps can be harsh in some situations, imho)
Lower input impedance...
Try bass and treble at zero and mids at 10, try this as a starting place for your tone controls. This configuration puts the tone control flat on most amps. So you start with no boosted hi's or low's.
Run the amp mid heavy and use an eq after the amp to dial in the hi's and low's.

I think either the matrix is broke or there is some axefx parameter seriously misinformed.
 
"Did you try using that PEQ with positive gain to hunt down those offending frequencies before you squashed them?" Not sure I understand how to do this? Going to plug into a friends FRFR system tonight and will take the Matrix to someone to have it looked at. I will try the other suggestions form everyone else and let you know. Thanks again for all the comments. I am a little shocked at how many people have offered suggestions. You guys are awesome. Honestly, I am thinking I am just so used to a the way a rack preamp and power work together as that is all I have used for almost 30 years. Any one have experience with the Koch ATR4502 90W Stereo Rack-Mounted Tube Guitar Power Amp ?
 
Try using a pitch follower as a control parameter to roll off high end as pitch of the note increases. That can preserve definition in the lower registers while avoiding harshness as you move up the fretboard
 
Keith Loch said:
"Did you try using that PEQ with positive gain to hunt down those offending frequencies before you squashed them?" Not sure I understand how to do this?
Click to expand...
Set up your PEQ to boost a frequency range. Give it a good, strong boost. Now sweep the frequency back and forth until the offending brittleness jumps out at you. When it does jump out, you’ve found the “bad” frequency. Now turn down the gain at that frequency so you’re cutting it instead of boosting it.
 
Basic question, but have you tried a factory reset? I don't think you'd have to jump through all these hoops typically. I do wonder if the power amp modeling hasn't been disabled?
 
Keith Loch said:
Chris, I did try the Input EQ in the amp block. I don't know if cutting the highs is the right way to say what I am trying to do. The best way to say it is remove the harshness from the highs. The more I turn up the Matrix, the more the highs get sharp, shrill, harsh, almost like a pinch harmonic and I only have the gain on 5 of the Splawn Qrod. I just don't get it, the VHT doesn't do this. It has been like this since I bought it and used it with XL+. Next thing to do is take it to the band room and show it to a friend of mine who had a Matrix and every single Axe version that has come out and see what he thinks.
Click to expand...
Try using the Multi Comp. This may round your sound out.
 
Try to isolate what is causing it. Create a preset with just amp and cab sim and go from there. I've added a simple chorus or flanger and it messed up the tones for me.
You taking it to a friend's place is good too, because it could be your amp. My rig started sounding like crap and got worse. We always want to blame the AXE FX first. But I found 99% of the time it is something else, like a bad cable, or an outboard causing a weird tone. In my case it was bad 6L6 tubes in my Mesa stereo amp. Swapped them out and now it sounds dreamy and creamy.
 
I like how many people have suggested all these different things, but I also feel how the OP is overwhelmed with all these different suggestions. I'm still not sure if OP is understanding what's causing the shrill highs between the two power amps. Let's start from the beginning.

Matrix power amp is a solid state power amp which is supposed to be flat as possible, which it is. It doesn't color your sound. That means it doesn't cut or boost any frequencies and lets all the frequencies through from the source. Its job is to keep your signal as transparent as possible.

VHT power amp uses tubes and is NOT flat. It does color your sound. It has that "tube warmness", "tube roundness" or whatever you wanna call it. It's pushing some and cutting some of the high frequencies, which people sometimes refer as "warm" or "tube sound". You can think of it as an eq, which sometimes can be useful, but you also can't get rid of if you want to.

If your amp sound is too bright to begin with, it will sound too bright when using the Matrix. You can get away with the VHT power amp, because it's cutting some of the shrill high frequencies. This can become a problem when feeding a direct sound to PA or FOH. You might be enjoying a "nice warm tube sound" for yourself, but at the same time be feeding an overly bright sound to FOH because the VHT is not coloring that one.

See the problem here? You either have to lower the treble on the amp or use an always on EQ matched to the VHT power amp inside your Axe FX. I wouldn't suggest the latter, because it will most probably introduce some problems.

Here's a few suggestions:
  • If you plan to use direct sound from Axe FX to PA or FOH, always tweak with FRFR and with gig volume. That is what the audience is hearing. Fletcher Munson is a real thing with every setup.
  • If you use cabinet emulation, try to find a few impulse responses that don't have those shrill highs. Look for a typical or certain cabinet impulse you might feel using, e.g. 4x12 Marshall impulse for Marshall amps. Then scroll between the impulses, use your ears and stop when you have something you like.
  • If you feel like all impulse responses have too much high end, use the high cut until you don't hear those nasty frequencies. 5-8k high cut is sometimes needed when using bright impulse responses.
  • If you still have shrill highs, lower the treble and presence on your amp. You can also try raising the amp master volume. Most of the time you shouldn't have to go deeper than that.
  • If you still have shrill highs, try to find a better impulse or just change the amp. There's plenty to choose from. You might've just used a bright amp with a bright impulse. Bright + bright = too bright.
EDIT: try not to get anxious with all this. It's overwhelming to almost anybody in the first place. I'm telling this with almost 7 years of experience and oh man, I've struggled :cool:

It's a little more to hassle compared to a traditional guitar amp and cab setup. But once you understand it all, you have total control of your sound. It's really worth it.
 
Last edited:
aens said:
I like how many people have suggested all these different things, but I also feel how the OP is overwhelmed with all these different suggestions. I'm still not sure if OP is understanding what's causing the shrill highs between the two power amps. Let's start from the beginning.

Matrix power amp is a solid state power amp which is supposed to be flat as possible, which it is. It doesn't color your sound. That means it doesn't cut highs and lets all the frequencies through from the source. Its job is to keep your signal as transparent as possible.

VHT power amp uses tubes and is NOT flat. It does color your sound. It has that "tube warmness", "tube roundness" or whatever you wanna call it. It's pushing some and cutting some of the high frequencies, which people sometimes refer as "warm" or "tube sound". You can think of it as an eq, which sometimes can be useful, but you also can't get rid of if you want to.

See the problem here? You either have to lower the treble on the amp or use an always on EQ matched to the VHT power amp inside your Axe FX. I wouldn't suggest the latter, because it will most probably introduce some problems.

If your amp sound is too bright to begin with, it will sound too bright when using the Matrix. You can get away with the VHT power amp, because it's cutting some of the shrill high frequencies. This can become a problem when feeding a direct sound to PA or FOH. You might be enjoying a "nice warm tube sound" for yourself, but at the same time be feeding an overly bright sound to FOH because the VHT is not coloring that one.

Here's a few suggestions:
  • If you plan to use direct sound from Axe FX to PA or FOH, always tweak with FRFR and with gig volume. Fletcher Munson is a real thing with every setup.
  • If you use cabinet emulation, try to find a few impulse responses that don't have those shrill highs. Look for a typical or certain cabinet impulse you might feel using, for e.g. 4x12 Marshall impulse for Marshall amps. Then scroll between the impulses, use your ears and stop when you have something you like.
  • If you feel like all impulse responses have too much high end, use the high cut until you don't hear those nasty frequencies. 5-8k high cut is sometimes needed when using bright impulse responses.
  • If you still have shrill highs, lower the treble and presence on your amp. You can also try raising the amp master volume. Most of the time you shouldn't have to go deeper than that.
  • If you still have shrill highs, go back to finding a right impulse or just change the amp. There's plenty to choose from. You might've just used a bright amp with a bright impulse. Bright + bright = too bright.
Click to expand...
Well said. I’m still just surprised that EQ adjustments didn’t do anything to make it any better. I know it’s a feel thing, but there should have been some improvement.
 
I feel like he’s really looking for compression since he said he’s using a light touch. I associate compression with bringing in more warmth along with the actual act of compression. I would mess with light compression up front (Perhaps optical) and maybe crank the amp compression (sag?). Just my initial thoughts.
 
Also, audition more cabs. @2112 did a cool video on the Silver Jubilee where he demonstrated completely different characteristics using a different IR to get a Joe B sound. I tried it and it works awesome. It’s like that IR got rid of some of the upper harmonics without choking all the natural high end. At least, that was my take.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom