How to get warm round high end

[lauke-lux]

Are you sure to have activated amp sag and cab sims in axefx ? What config you play in and what guitar and pickups do you use ?

 

[Keith Loch]

Thanks for the input guys. Sound is hard to describe without hearing it. I will post a sample when I get a chance

 

[Keith Loch]

Could not get the video uploaded so I put in a drop box link. I did cranked the gain more than I normally use. Like I said before, I have used rack power amps with rack preamps for decades and never experienced this drastic change in sound and feel as I turned them up. The power amp emulation gets sharp as I turn up the Matix but stays round when I turn up the VHT. This makes me think there is something in the power amp emulation that I can adjust to keep this "round" pick attack. videos as it is in person.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8bsxbkzhh5t198p/VHT vs Power Emulation.mp4?dl=0

 

[xarkon]

This might (or might not) help with where you want to cut:

 

[unix-guy]

So... Interesting thing is you didn't mention anywhere else that you're comparing the sound of full amp modeling + Matrix amp to Preamp modeling only + tube power amp.

What amp model are you using?

The power amp is responsible for a lot of the overall tone on some amps. So you're (in a sense) swapping power sections and expecting the same sound.

I can hear the difference... But you might want to try some different models, turn up the Master Volume, etc...

 

[chris]

Could not get the video uploaded so I put in a drop box link. I did cranked the gain more than I normally use. Like I said before, I have used rack power amps with rack preamps for decades and never experienced this drastic change in sound and feel as I turned them up. The power amp emulation gets sharp as I turn up the Matix but stays round when I turn up the VHT. This makes me think there is something in the power amp emulation that I can adjust to keep this "round" pick attack. videos as it is in person.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8bsxbkzhh5t198p/VHT vs Power Emulation.mp4?dl=0

thanks for the video.

have you tried reducing treble with the matrix setup?

 

[Randalljax]

Could not get the video uploaded so I put in a drop box link. I did cranked the gain more than I normally use. Like I said before, I have used rack power amps with rack preamps for decades and never experienced this drastic change in sound and feel as I turned them up. The power amp emulation gets sharp as I turn up the Matix but stays round when I turn up the VHT. This makes me think there is something in the power amp emulation that I can adjust to keep this "round" pick attack. videos as it is in person.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8bsxbkzhh5t198p/VHT vs Power Emulation.mp4?dl=0

I think the easiest thing is use the VHT in all honesty
Its likely you just donT dig the solid state power amp

Also if you are in a garage which it appears you are with a steel door
Next to you that is going to be much brighter

If you want a less sharp attack i would recommend turning down the power tube hardness turning up the sag a bit and playing with the negative feeback
Lower it a bit

 

[Keith Loch]

I think the easiest thing is use the VHT in all honesty
Its likely you just donT dig the solid state power amp

Also if you are in a garage which it appears you are with a steel door
Next to you that is going to be much brighter

If you want a less sharp attack i would recommend turning down the power tube hardness turning up the sag a bit and playing with the negative feeback
Lower it a bit

I did not set out to compare the VHT against the Matix when I started this post. I used it as a way to try to show everyone what I am trying to get out of the Axe and Matrix. The guy from Matrix told me the amp would not color any of the Axe Power Amp modeling and was one of the reasons I started this journey. So I was thinking I could get that round warmness with the Axe and Matrix like I did with the other rack pre and power amps I have used over the years. I have not used an all in amp, ya know pre and power amp section in the same box for over 30 years. Maybe I just misunderstood the concept of amp modeling? The main amp models I have been messing around with are the 5153 blue and red, the HBE and the video was of the Splawn QRod OD2. There are many that I really like but every time I start cranking them the harshness creeps in. Perhaps this is normal of a real amp head and not that of a rack set up like I have always used? There are so many settings with the amp modeling in this thing it is overwhelming. I have high hopes that messing with the power tube hardness, sag and negative feeeback will do the trick. This has been difficult to explain as it is also a feel thing. I really appreciate every ones suggestions and will let you know how I make out. My main guitars are older Petrucci's that I have Dimarzio Breeds in.

 

[Rex]

If I understand you correctly, you're not happy with how the sound changes as you turn up the volume knob on the Matrix. That's a Matrix issue, not an Axe-Fx issue. The Axe doesn't know where the Matrix's volume is set. It's not changing its behavior in this case — the Matrix is, however.

@yek has an interesting bit of information about the Matrix, in case it helps:

Also, Matrix amps need to be set to 1 o’clock or higher for best results (compensate with the OUT Level knob on the Axe-Fx).

As for the initial difference in pick attack that you noted in the video: we don't know what amp model you're using, so we don't know what power amp you're emulating, and we don't know how hard you're hitting that virtual power amp. So we have no basis to compare that against the VHT.


And you're right: the difference doesn't come out very strongly in the video.

 

[Rex]

There are so many settings with the amp modeling it can be overwhelming. There are many that I really like but every time I start cranking them the harshness creeps in.

Then maybe you cranked them too far.

 

[Keith Loch]

Are you sure to have activated amp sag and cab sims in axefx ? What config you play in and what guitar and pickups do you use ?

I have not messed with the sag. At first, I was just trying to tweak some of the default presets like the Splawn Qrod and the 5153 in hopes to the the roundness I am after

If I understand you correctly, you're not happy with how the sound changes as you turn up the volume knob on the Matrix. That's a Matrix issue, not an Axe-Fx issue. The Axe doesn't know where the Matrix's volume is set. It's not changing its behavior in this case — the Matrix is, however.

@yek has an interesting bit of information about the Matrix, in case it helps:




As for the initial difference in pick attack that you noted in the video: we don't know what amp model you're using, so we don't know what power amp you're emulating, and we don't know how hard you're hitting that virtual power amp. So we have no basis to compare that against the VHT.


And you're right: the difference doesn't come out very strongly in the video.

This is all great information. Maybe it is the Matrix? I did not think of this as the owner of Matrix told me it would not "color" the Axe at all. But clearly something is changing as I turn up the volume. I happens on every amp model, but mostly been trying the 5153, HBE and Splawn QRod

 

[unix-guy]

There are many, many people happily using the Matrix amps without issue and getting round, warm tones.

A separate preamp + power amp does not equal an integrated amp. The circuits cannot interact the same way.

The amp models in the Axe Fx are very accurate. The Matrix is very accurate.

Do you have the Bright switch on? Do you have Presence turned up?

These things affect the power section... So turning off power amp modeling would potentially have a major effect on the tone. Your VHT would need it's own controls for that...

Also, just my own opinion (as not much of a high gain player these days): none of amp models you listed would I categorize as "warm"... All 3 are a bit thin on the top end to me.

 

[OldSnail]

Maybe a boost in the bass ?

 

[RyanB]

Logged in for the first time just to respond to this and hopefully help you.

I basically hated every single tone I was getting out of the axfx until I started gutting the dynamic presence. My idea of good lead tone heavily comes from Eric Johnson and until started turning that knob all the way down I couldn't even get close to having something I was happy with. I think I set it at -6/-7.

I noticed that knob heavily effects how the high end and pick attack feel at loud Volumes.

Hope that helps like it helped me.
If you already tried that knob I also find useing the bright knob and definition knob work better then the actual treble knob for getting smoother distortion. Good luck.

 

[Solarfire]

Playing harder usually gives more treble in my experience.

Not necessarily true, depending on pickup and height adjustment, “harder play, dig-in” will introduce pickup compression/saturation making the top-end less prominent/smoother.

 

[chris]

Not necessarily true, depending on pickup and height adjustment, “harder play, dig-in” will introduce pickup compression/saturation making the top-end less prominent/smoother.

It’s why I said “usually.”

Anyone can always point out an exception to anything.

 

[GrindcoreHank]

Have you tried cranking up the Master Volume of the amp block in the Axe-FX III? That should smooth out the highs and glue things together nicely

 

[pauly]

Hi Keith,
That’s no good! Have you looked at the cab block?
First - make sure all but one ir is muted (so you know what you’re listening to)
Then, while you are playing, ( or setup a loop) change the ir....cycle through them all if you must. I reckon you’re bound to find something that soothes your problem.
Thanks
Pauly

Hello all, I had this problem with my AXE FX XL+, but it seems to be worse with my new 3, which I just bought new last moth. The more I turn it up the harsher the high end gets. I know about the fletcher munson curve and all that. Never had this problem with anything else I have ever owned from ADA-MP1, JMP1, Rocktron Prophesy or Digitech 2101 thru 2120. Yes, allways been a rack gear guy. No matter what I do, with any amp mode, the highs are just too harsh and sharp. By comparison, I have an old Johnson Millennium that I use for small gigs and I am able to get a real nice warm round sound when soloing.

So far I have tried it direct through the PA, also tried with the FRFR Oraginc Timbre speakers and have also tried it turning off the cab sims and used my Mesa Recto with V30s and list night gigged with a Marshall 2/12 with GT12-75s. I have cut back 8k and above on the global eq and last night had do really dial back the high, "super high -forgot what this is really called" and the presence to 2 on the amp models. I also have para eq blocking the hights after the amp block. I just cannot seem to figure out how to get a rounder warm high end creamy lead sound. It is just so bright, harsh. I have not tired an eq or para eq in front of the amp block but will be doing that later today. Maybe that is the trick.

Yes I know the terms, harsh, bright, warm round, etc are all subjective. Thanks advance for the tips.

 

[Piing]

Logged in for the first time just to respond to this and hopefully help you.

I basically hated every single tone I was getting out of the axfx until I started gutting the dynamic presence. My idea of good lead tone heavily comes from Eric Johnson and until started turning that knob all the way down I couldn't even get close to having something I was happy with. I think I set it at -6/-7.

I noticed that knob heavily effects how the high end and pick attack feel at loud Volumes.

Hope that helps like it helped me.
If you already tried that knob I also find useing the bright knob and definition knob work better then the actual treble knob for getting smoother distortion. Good luck.

Ah! It is good to read this forum when taking a rest after spending a long time tweaking a reamped tone. I was trying to get a "warm round high end" with a Blackmorish lead tone (using the Tube 3-knob Drive into the Class-A 30W Bright). EQ was not getting me there. But, reducing the Dynamic Presence to -5 has given me that rounded warm thing I was looking for.


As a matter of fact, Blackmore's tone at that recording (Wasted Sunsets solo) is too harsh on the highs for my taste. I was trying to get it softer. It is obvious that Blackmore didn't have a Dynamic Presence Control

 

[Denny99]

Could not get the video uploaded so I put in a drop box link. I did cranked the gain more than I normally use. Like I said before, I have used rack power amps with rack preamps for decades and never experienced this drastic change in sound and feel as I turned them up. The power amp emulation gets sharp as I turn up the Matix but stays round when I turn up the VHT. This makes me think there is something in the power amp emulation that I can adjust to keep this "round" pick attack. videos as it is in person.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8bsxbkzhh5t198p/VHT vs Power Emulation.mp4?dl=0

My earing isn't probably the same as 20 years ago, but I don't hear much difference in high end between the two setups. Highs are pretty much what I would expect from a hi-gain preset.