HOW TO BUILD/ROUTE A PERIPHERY/TESSERACT LIVE RIG???

Hey all, I'm in self produced two piece prog metal band and the plan, live, is to play to a click with in-ear monitoring, and the axe-fx II controlled via program/control changes via Logic 9 (perhaps cubase or pro tools down the road) through a macbook pro with a few parameters controlled manually using my MFC-101 MKIII and expression pedals. We also need the capability to control our own mix for in-ear/on stage monitoring.

The Gear we have

-FURMAN POWER SUPPLY/CONDITIONER (Older model)
-AXE-FX II
-MFC-101 MK III
-MACBOO PRO (2009 10.8.5 OS)
-AVID M-BOX (Looking at replacing with the new MOTU828X)
-LOGIC Express 9
-MATRIX 1000GTFX for backline Orange 2X12 and/or Orange 4X12
-ORANGE OR100H (Alternate BU PA)
- 2 MACKIE HD1221 (Optional on stage Monitoring or Stereo FRFR backline)

SoO...need to build a small, durable, DEPENDABLE rack.

Again, need help with routing this stuff.

1) POWER
Furman will power everything (correct?).
2) MIDI
Do I need a MIDI Rack 1U like the MOTU MIDI EXPRESS 128 or can I just run the AXE-FX via USB?
Which is more dependable?
3) AXE-FX MIDI
If running axe-fx to MOTU MIDI express 128 via midi cables, how do I route this? What settings on axe-fx
need to be made in the I/O? Will MFC-101 MK III need to be connected via ethernet or FASLINK?
4) MIXING
Again, looking at MOTU 828X RU. I honestly don't know how to use this but I assume it is to control
the mix for inner ear and on stage, route multi-out for click tracks and multi in-ears, send signal to FOH for
our Backing Tracks, and take Axe-Fx signal in for in-ear monitoring.
5) AXE-FX FOH
I assume I need to send a stereo signal to FOH via OUTPUT XLR 1,2 and then another stereo signal to
the MOTU 828X for monitoring, correct? And then using the FX-LOOP to MATRIX PA for my
backline.
6) IN-EAR
I assume i will send separate signals from the MOTU 828X out into the IN-EAR RU's.

Routing this stuff within Logic Express 9 or Pro Tools is a whole other ball game...
I hope that it will be self explanatory as Logic SHOULD recognize the external interfaces and then I can just select the appropriate I/O channels. I already know how to setup Program/Control changes for axe-fx.

ANY, insight and clarification will be GREATLY appreciated bc unfortunately the band members (all two of us) are also the Gear/audio Techs.
 
Do I need a MIDI Rack 1U like the MOTU MIDI EXPRESS 128 or can I just run the AXE-FX via USB?

No, you can run it via USB or via the sound card's MIDI jacks (I do the latter, although I use MOTU Ultralite, the 828x is my home audio interface).

Again, looking at MOTU 828X RU. I honestly don't know how to use this but I assume it is to control
the mix for inner ear and on stage, route multi-out for click tracks and multi in-ears, send signal to FOH for
our Backing Tracks, and take Axe-Fx signal in for in-ear monitoring.

I do all that with a simpler card. Yes, you can do it. You can also control mixes wirelessly. There are a few things to keep in mind though. First, 828x has only stereo busses. This means that you'll need to have stereo monitor mixes, as each bus will use a pair of outputs. You can treat each stereo channel individually, but in that case you'll need to adjust both level and pan, which is a bit of a hassle. So just make sure that whatever card you buy it has enough outputs.

I assume I need to send a stereo signal to FOH via OUTPUT XLR 1,2 and then another stereo signal to
the MOTU 828X for monitoring, correct?

I use S/PDIF for my AFX but you can use any outputs you like.


I assume i will send separate signals from the MOTU 828X out into the IN-EAR RU's.

I'm not sure what you mean by this question, but you need a mix of everything in your in-ears, not just your Axe. And this isn't the same mix as the one that goes to FOH. You should feed FOH separately, outside your card, as it may need transformer isolation. How you do it depends on your gear.



Routing this stuff within Logic Express 9 or Pro Tools is a whole other ball game...
I hope that it will be self explanatory as Logic SHOULD recognize the external interfaces and then I can just select the appropriate I/O channels.

Nothing is really self-explanatory as far as DAWs are concerned, and Pro Tools is a total nightmare, IMO. Don't know about Logic. But otherwise you are correct, you send relevant tracks to the outputs you need. Keep in mind that you'll need to handle all the track routing in your DAW.

For live use, nothing beats Ableton. Any DAW will work but for live you need specific functionality, namely some ability to jump to beginnings of tracks and stop and their ends. At least that. And preferably this should be done via midi so you can assign a button or two on your mfc for playback control.
 
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[QUOTE="I'm not sure what you mean by this question, but you need a mix of everything in your in-ears, not just your Axe. And this isn't the same mix as the one that goes to FOH. You should feed FOH separately, outside your card, as it may need transformer isolation. How you do it depends on your gear.[/QUOTE]

I'm referring to our need for different monitoring mixes. The drummer will want a different or multiple click tracks and only in one ear.

thanks for the responses!

Definitely gonna check out Ableton Live. I am purchasing the MOTU MIDI Express 128 Rack unit (I have other MIDI pedals that I want to control as well) and am wondering how i need to hook up the axe-fx and MFC? Can I use the Ethernet from MFC to AXE or do i need to run MIDI cables/FASLINK from MFC to Axe-Fx?

MOTU 128 MIDI OUT>AXE-FX MIDI IN MFC>ETHERNET>AXE-FX ???
 
Connect MFC to Axe via Ethercon or FASLink. Connect MOTU MIDI Out to Axe MIDI In, MOTU MIDI In to Axe MIDI Out. Select MFC Echo to MIDI Out in Axe IO settings if you want your MFC to send commands to other gear. You can also use Axe's Thru jack to pass through commands to other gear - it'll repeat everything that comes into its MIDI In port. But MIDI Thru won't transmit commands from your MFC if you connect it via Ethercon/Faslink.
 
Using this connection:

"Connect MFC to Axe via Ethercon or FASLink. Connect MOTU MIDI Out to Axe MIDI In, MOTU MIDI In to Axe MIDI Out. Select MFC Echo to MIDI Out in Axe IO settings if you want your MFC to send commands to other gear."


How do I get the MFC to actually control the ext. gear, assuming the ext. gear is running through the MOTU. Just not sure how to assign CC# control messages from MFC to control the ext. pedals etc. Is that on the MFC or within the DAW through channel assignment?

THANK YOU I Really appreciate the help!!!
 
It's not very easy to answer such a general question. Basically, the approach is to assign each device its separate channel first. Then you assign CCs and channels to MFC switches. You can also send a bunch of PCs, CCs, and SysEx messages with presets from the MFC. Depending on your gear and what kinds of messages those other devices accept, this may or may not be enough. If it isn't, then you may need some way to map incoming messages to other ones. There are both hardware and software methods to do it. I'm not very familiar with those, so can't help you much in this area.

I'm still not sure why you need that MOTU MIDI interface specifically, and don't know how it works. At minimum, it should do some routing (get a message, repeat it to some ports), maybe some filtering (I.e. resend everything except PCs), at maximum it'll also do some mapping (I.e. get a CC, translate it to a PC). Also, it should probably work as a clock source to sync tempo between devices.

I personally abandoned searching for hardware devices like that long ago, although initially my plan was to avoid relying on computers as much as possible. Unfortunately, there are very few options, and they all have drawbacks.

So in our setup, I have a computer with Ableton that's the master device. It plays MIDI tracks that send MIDI messages on various channels at specific moments. One track is for selecting presets, one for scene changes, one for looper control. This computer is connected via USB to my sound card which acts as a mixer and has a pair of MIDI ports. Those ports are connected to my Axe. The Thru port is connected to our other Axe's MIDI In. The other Axe's MIDI Thru goes to the keyboard, and from there to the vocal processor, but we don't use MIDI automation currently for the last two devices.

Basically, relying on such daisy-chaining is risky, I hear, so it's probably a good idea to indeed have a hardware device that just resends data to specifies ports (I guess that MOTU of yours should be able to do it). I doubt I'll go this way though. Or maybe I will, I'm not sure yet. :) One alternative may be using Ableton 9.6 (currently in beta), it has a feature allowing several instances of this program on different computers to work in sync with each other. This way I won't need cables all across the stage.

As far as the MFC goes, I have a couple of buttons dedicated to controlling Ableton itself - I use it to start and stop tracks. Actually, currently I use only one of them, it allows me to launch playback, start recording or stop. I'm thinking about some panic scenarios where I could also use more buttons to skip sections, repeat them and so on, but haven't yet gotten to all that.
 
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ya, sorry, I don't know too much about all of this so asking the RIGHT question has proven difficult. I think I have everything narrowed down based on what you have provided. Yes, the purpose of the MOTU MIDI 128 is so I can have my MIDI pedals, instruments & axe-fx all plugged into the same hardware to keep everything seamless and tidy. I think I'm gonna go with the MOTU 828X for our sound card, ya it's prob overkill but compared to the price of the MOTU ultralite ABV, why not spend $100 more and have ALL the features, plus the ultralite doesn't come in a rack mountable unit.

thanks for the help!
 
. I think I'm gonna go with the MOTU 828X for our sound card, ya it's prob overkill but compared to the price of the MOTU ultralite ABV, why not spend $100 more and have ALL the features, plus the ultralite doesn't come in a rack mountable unit.

Well, I mentioned Ultralite because that's what I'm using currently,but it's an Ultralite Mk3 Hybrid, not AVB. Like I said, I have an 828x at home, but for live use I'd probably upgrade my Ultralite to MOTU 1248, not 828x.

The Ultralite does come with rack ears though, and it's half rack wide. I think MOTU also has a half rack MIDI interface, you can assemble both into a 1U unit.
 
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Dang, that MOTU 1248 is nice but pricy, little more than I'm willing to spend. The half rack unit would fit nicely against the in-ear monitoring system I'm looking at.

You say you have the MOTU 828x, how does that differ from the MOTU 828 MKIII?
 
Dang, that MOTU 1248 is nice but pricy, little more than I'm willing to spend

For live mixing and expandability, I think it is worth it. For recording, it has one of the best converters in the industry. And for all that, the price isn't all that steep.

The half rack unit would fit nicely against the in-ear monitoring system I'm looking at.

Well, if you go the Ultralite AVB route, you can have both the interface and the midi card in one unit.

The MOTU AVB interfaces are superior to non-AVB ones for several reasons. One is AVB which will allow you to expand your inputs and outputs easily in the future via a simple Ethernet connection. So you can get an Ultralite AVB and then add whatever you need. Secondly, the mixing and routing options are WAY superior. With the regular MOTU software, I run into limitations all the time. And lastly, these new interfaces can be controlled wirelessly from any device that has a browser, so every band member can control their mix, and you can rename channels any way you want. You can do it with regular MOTU interfaces, too, but it's much more complicated and you cannot rename channels.



You say you have the MOTU 828x, how does that differ from the MOTU 828 MKIII?

I think that they are basically the same except that 828x has Thunderbolt and USB, while Mk3 has Firewire and USB.

But seriously, for live mixing of a two piece band Ultralite AVB will give you MORE options than a 828x or Mk3.
 
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For live mixing and expandability, I think it is worth it. For recording, it has one of the best converters in the industry. And for all that, the price isn't all that steep.



Well, if you go the Ultralite AVB route, you can have both the interface and the midi card in one unit.

The MOTU AVB interfaces are superior to non-AVB ones for several reasons. One is AVB which will allow you to expand your inputs and outputs easily in the future via a simple Ethernet connection. So you can get an Ultralite AVB and then add whatever you need. Secondly, the mixing and routing options are WAY superior. With the regular MOTU software, I run into limitations all the time. And lastly, these new interfaces can be controlled wirelessly from any device that has a browser, so every band member can control their mix, and you can rename channels any way you want. You can do it with regular MOTU interfaces, too, but it's much more complicated and you cannot rename channels.





I think that they are basically the same except that 828x has Thunderbolt and USB, while Mk3 has Firewire and USB.

But seriously, for live mixing of a two piece band Ultralite AVB will give you MORE options than a 828x or Mk3.

I don't see myself ever needing another AVB device so the networking capabilities don't really appeal to me, no doubt it is a nice feature though. I found an 828 mmiii Hybrid for $400!! great condition too, so for the price why not spend less to have more vs. spending $650 on the Ultralite AVB? And now with MOTU's New and Legacy supported CUEMIX app I can use an iPad/laptop to control the 828 MKIII. I gotta do it…i know it's overkill but I'm sure we will expand to more band members down the road, not to mention this interface will REALLY pay for itself in the studio.

thanks for your insight, it is incredibly helpful! Rock on
 
why not spend less to have more

You are not getting more with 828x. CueMix sucks for live mixing compared to the new UI they have. That is, if you even manage to make CueMix work with a software control surface over WiFi. Which isn't a given.

You say you won't need AVB. Will you need two banks of ADAT in the 828? :)

Like I said, I have a 828x, it's fine for home use, and I'm not sorry I bought it. Not so much for live.
 
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You are not getting more with 828x. CueMix sucks for live mixing compared to the new UI they have. That is, if you even manage to make CueMix work with a software control surface over WiFi. Which isn't a given.

You say you won't need AVB. Will you need two banks of ADAT in the 828? :)

Like I said, I have a 828x, it's fine for home use, and I'm not sorry I bought it. Not so much for live.


Well the 828 MKIII has more I/O ports available which will com in handy for recording drums…or a full band. I plan on purchasing an apple air port or some kind of WIFI signal booster/antenna to lock in my WIFI signals etc. And no, i don't think I would need more than one bank of ADAT. But then again, I'm not sure bc i honestly don't know a scenario that would require that, for me.
 
Well the 828 MKIII has more I/O ports available which will com in handy for recording drums…or a full band.

You need mic preamps for recording drums. Those are line inputs on the 828.

If your band expands, you'll need to expand the routing and mixing capabilities first and foremost. The Ultralite AVB gives you those options, the 828 will be MUCH more limiting and difficult to use.

Think about it this way: when your band expands, first and foremost you'll need monitor mixes, for IEMs or wedges, or both. 828, with all it's outputs, gives you four usable Aux sends. Only four. When those sends include output from your computer, you won't be able to route it or control volume from CueMix. So if your drummer says click is too loud, he won't be able to turn it down from his iPad you will be running to and from the computer to change it in your DAW. Also, because you cannot restrict users to their specific mixes, everybody will have access to everything. This truly sucks, believe me. I ended up not letting anyone touch it, and, apart from playing, I now adjust monitor mixes for the whole band. It's not fun at all. Not least because I always need to remember that "Mix 8" is what goes to the drummer's IEM and "Input 2" is my guitar there.

Now, I think I've given you enough opinion pieces about this choice, I'm not an AVB salesman really. Just pointing out that initially I was thinking quite like you do now, and it turned out to be a mistake.
 
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I appreciate all the input and ya, you have given me exactly what I need to know. We have the need for a very similar setup and based on our gear similarities I feel confident in building this rig. I went ahead, and purchased the 828 MKIII Hybrid bc it was a steal…IMO. And as you said, will def. need to expand the mixing/monitoring capabilities so when that time comes I'll switch to the AVB stuff.

again, thanks for all the help!
 
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