How Do You Deal With Engineer Ignorance?

fox5150

fox5150

Inspired
I've just got in from band practice having had an uncomfortable conversation with the drummer, who also used to engineer.

Tonight was the first night at band practice with my Axe-FX and Atomic CLR (more to come on that in another thread) and the consensus on the sound was a resounding thumbs up. However, after practice, we're packing up and chatting away and we're discussing about how I connect the Axe-FX up. My plan is to use the CLR from Output 2 as my monitor, and run to FoH from Output 1 and let the PA do the heavy lifting. He was adamant that I'd have to mic the CLR up as any engineer worth his salt will want to blend the sound coming out of the CLR with the processed sound coming out of the Axe-FX. Now this opinion is one borne simply out of ignorance.

Try as hard as I might I could not make him understand that that was pointless. I explained how it all worked and still I couldn't make him understand. He even said "do you think big touring bands run straight to the desk", which is then when I brought up every artist in the Fractal Artist page. Still he was adamant that this was wrong and every engineer will insist on micing it up. Even when I brought up that I'd used the Axe-FX at a gig with our regular engineer and that he loved just running out the back of the box, he still wouldn't accept it.

So, after my waffle and preamble, how do you guys deal with this kind of attitude, short of saying "Just shut the f*ck up and listen to how it sounds".




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ask him if people usually mic up full range cabinets... well he probably won't know what you're talking about.

the sound coming out of the CLR will be the same sound direct out of the axe so there is absolutely no reason to mic up the CLR.

guitar amps with cabs and bass amps with cabs are different - this is not a guitar amp with a cab, it's a direct input device, meaning no microphone needed (or usually wanted with something like a full range CLR).



in those situations i usually tell them to try it my way for a bit. if they refuse to even try it based solely on "nobody else does it like that," i never work with them again.
 
That's just pure ignorance and stupidity.

No sane and capable engineer whom you will tell what the CLR is will mic it and there are soooo many pro bands that go direct to the board, nevermind if they use an Axe or something else.... I saw so many Axe FXs last year at one of the biggest german festivals and so many other bands that go direct.

Sorry but I really don't know how to deal with your drummer as it seems he's somebody who doesn't understand a basic principle (like FRFR CLR -> just monitoring with Cab + Mic sim already coming from the Axe) and is ignorant and doesn't even think of the possibilty that another way than his is the right one.

Sorry man, wish I could've been of more help.... but maybe tomorrow when I've gotten some rest ;)
 
Your first mistake was “conversation with the drummer” :lol (sorry couldn’t resist)

But seriously, how about just letting him hear the difference during sound check before your next gig ? i.e. A/B direct vs mic
 
Since he is the drummer & not the engineer for this band, what difference does it make. You did your best to explain it but the other guy has to actually listen to what you are saying & it sounds like this guy refused to do that.
 
This is the trouble with knowing someone is so hopelessly wrong, whilst disagreeing with them, them being a really good friend and not wanting to fall out over something so silly :D

In hindsight what I should have said is, "Do we mic up the keyboard amp?".

Unfortunately the individual in question is one of those chaps that will prolong an argument long after it's been lost. I knew he was grasping when his argument was "What if I want to hear you moving on stage" and "what if I (as in him) want some guitar ambience in my monitors". It devolved from there really.

I've read some interesting threads on this before and have always chortled at the situations. Never did I expect to be the one in that situation!


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A solution could be to say "fine, mic up my monitor" and then just unplug the mic, and put it n the output of your CLR and when he says "See, i told you it was better!" then you can say "ha!"

My uncle is a drummer, and mentioned on one of my recordings "Yea everything sounds great but i can tell those are fake drums, i just dont think fake drums will ever sound like a real drummer"

I waited until the next song and showed him, and said "Yea I had a drummer record and send me files". his response? "Yea there we go, now THAT sounds like a drummer"

I used the same mix and drum preset...

People hear too much with their eyes. I say trick him or convince him to at least try it out. Either way im sorry you have to deal with a difficult individual, that's never fun :/
 
At least it wasn't the sound engineer for your show.

You will be presented with a sound guys who are completely ignorant to running FRFR and using a powered monitor. When I had my RCF, I had a sound guy try to mic it and when I tried to reason with him that I wanted to run direct, he got very uncomfortable and insisted on doing it his way. I let him set up his little mic...however, when he wasn't looking I unplugged the XLR from the mic and plugged it into the back of my Axe Fx II ;)

The sound guy was real impressed with himself when everything sounded good ( hehehehehe ;) ). I thanked him kindly for his "hard work" after the show. At the end of the day, we aren't paid any more for how our guitar rig sounds. While I would have loved to have shown up this guy with my knowledge, it is sometimes best to just make friends and pull a little socratic method to sound good.
 
I think there's another way to look at this all together. If money, time, space, volume, … wasn't an issue, I'm sure most of us would prefer to have one each out of every amp that we use with out presets as the original valve amps, on the ideal settings, with the correct cabs, properly mic'd up and so on every time we play at home or on stage. And every so often we see some big artist that do it like that and of course, who's going to say no to Jimmy Page or Angus Young, or someone like that if that's the way they want to do it.

But to me, very much an amateur that plays in a band that has gigs every so often, there's just no way that I could even take one of these amps in my presets to the sweet spot when playing either at home or with the band. Never mind 4+ different ones. So even if the pro's do it differently doesn't mean that it's the right way to do it for me and you. In the ideal scenario maybe there's a better way than running the Axe Fx direct to FoH, but since I, and I would guess you, never really play in that ideal scenario, the best scenario for us is to do exactly like you described in your plan Fox5150 - run output 1 direct to FoH and output 2 to your own monitor, a Yamaha DXR10 in my case. Just the fact that I can adjust my own volume on channel 2 separately without affecting FoH is worth it not to mic my monitor to me. This setup will get me closer to the ideal setup than I imagine any other setup that I could practically and consistently do.
 
I've been through this as well. You will have to have the same conversation with club engineers so don't worry about not being able to convince your drummer. Just laugh and say "Hopefully the engineers we work with will be more knowledgeable about modern technology." He'll like that :)
 
He is in your employ no? Do what I say. I've personally had it with crappy sound guys. Give me an xlr from the snake... now go walk back up to your desk.
 
If you were using a real guitar cab on stage he'd be... well you'd both be right. Lots of engineers prefer to have access to the mic'd sound and the direct sound for blending to taste, some don't. But when it's a full range setup, that's just ridiculous. No point in micing that up.
 
allard said:
I think there's another way to look at this all together. If money, time, space, volume, … wasn't an issue, I'm sure most of us would prefer to have one each out of every amp that we use with out presets as the original valve amps, on the ideal settings, with the correct cabs, properly mic'd up and so on every time we play at home or on stage. And every so often we see some big artist that do it like that and of course, who's going to say no to Jimmy Page or Angus Young, or someone like that if that's the way they want to do it.

But to me, very much an amateur that plays in a band that has gigs every so often, there's just no way that I could even take one of these amps in my presets to the sweet spot when playing either at home or with the band. Never mind 4+ different ones. So even if the pro's do it differently doesn't mean that it's the right way to do it for me and you. In the ideal scenario maybe there's a better way than running the Axe Fx direct to FoH, but since I, and I would guess you, never really play in that ideal scenario, the best scenario for us is to do exactly like you described in your plan Fox5150 - run output 1 direct to FoH and output 2 to your own monitor, a Yamaha DXR10 in my case. Just the fact that I can adjust my own volume on channel 2 separately without affecting FoH is worth it not to mic my monitor to me. This setup will get me closer to the ideal setup than I imagine any other setup that I could practically and consistently do.
Click to expand...

The thing is, this (Direct to FOH + FRFR Monitors) is in fact the "Ideal Scenario" if using the modeling capabilities of your AFX.
 
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