How do we know the amp models are very accurate?

My 65 bassman sounded a bit different than another bassman I borrowed. My matchless amps sounded different than other people’s matchless amps.

They sound close but not 100% the same. So when someone compares the tube amp to the Axe on YouTube I don’t really care if it sounds different because the one modeled may differ. Then you have to take into account the microphone differences, micing technique, mic preamp differences, cabinet differences, room differences, etc.

Anyway, here’s wonderwall.
 
sure - "if it sounds good - it's good" - can't argue with that.

My point is that: if one is trying to find a tone he/she has in mind with only "just trust your ears" as guidance, he/she may be searching for a long time. Knowing how to choose/find the right amp/effect and knowing as much as possible about how the chosen amp/effect works is key along with using ears at the same time in the dialing in process. Even the word "trust" in "just trust trust your ears" sets off alarms bells for me because many of us have a limited listening skill set. When I started in guitar I had difficulty hearing changes in bottom end vs mid vs high end vs sizzle vs ... - I had, and still have, limited ability to isolate these in listening nevermind being able to hear more nuanced tonal characteristics. It takes a lot of training/practice to listen the way some can (ie CC). So yes, if it sounds good, it's good regardless of critical listening ability, but before arriving there, if one is trying to find a tone in mind, learned listening ability is part of the tweakers skill set along with the other stuff. Many of us actually can't trust our untrained ears to lead us in the right direction, so knowing the other stuff becomes even more important.
While I agree with what you are saying, I feel a lot of guitarists have a certain aversion to actually tweaking their amps. People tend to psychologically just stick to settings that are a little bit to either side of halfway and are not exploring the extremes of their controls. I find myself guilty of that sometimes, that's the "listening with your eyes" dilemma.

That might make you miss out on some of the quirkier amps like the Mesa Mark or Bogner Shiva where some knobs need to be at pretty high or low values to work well. Of course knowing that in the first place is part of the knowledge about amps but you could end up finding that out simply by using the controls and actually listening and worrying less about where the knobs point.
 
To start, having a very good FR and / or monitors would be really important. Unless you just ‘have to’ use your power amp and guitar cab for that ‘air in the room & punch’.. which many obsess over. Keep in mind... a power amp (especially tube) and guitar speakers will color ‘their’ sound in everything you throw at them. A good FR will not.
If not available... choose what amp tones you’re after, and find the best sounding examples you can on YouTube, a concert video, or elsewhere. If using a FR, audition IR’s that are generally used with that amp. Experiment with the tone stack controls... forget (for now) the advanced parameters, unless you learn how they affect the tone and feel.
I’m into Marshall’s the most, I ‘know’ them the most. I’ve dialed in a dozen various ones... some like the 800 or 1987x more than one preset (for variety). I’ve had very good results. Some even better than the real deal... some, in the ballpark but a bit different. Just like the real deal... not all are the same.
 
The amp models are accurate to the actual amp Fractal owns. If you know anything about tube amps, you understand part tolerances of +/- 20% result in tonal variations between exact same models.
I would agree, however, accuracy can mean not so much about having the model/amp sound the same at matching knob positions, and a lot about the model responding like the real amp when the knobs are turned or to varying input levels/tonal character.
 
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Subtle differences can even be the humidity and/or temperature of the room and how it affects the circuits in the amp itself or the console it was recorded on.
 
For this kind of discussion, for me, it helps to think about what accuracy means.

Does it pertain to certain ways of testing? Blind tests with obvious transitions? No transition indicators? A given tube amp going into a load box vs the FAS unit with a similar impedance curve loaded and the same IR? Is accuracy about EQ only? Does "feel" factor into it and the ability of the player to discern differences that way?

Both answers of "no, it's not accurate" and "yes, it's accurate" seem relatively meaningless to me without further clarification.

Usually there's more said, sure. People often clarify further. But I do remember being told, many times, a given unit is simply "accurate", in the past, by people with technical expertise.. that I'd imagine would be more discerning about these terms, either way. "It's accurate!". Well ok, and what does that mean? The monkeys arse is blue.. ok. And I'm guilty of using that word vaguely too for sure.

My own short answer: for me, the relevant "accuracy" that matters the most does involve some EQ, as well as the "feel" of the amp sim (which isn't to say EQ does not affect feel; massively often does). And I do not have access to fractal's own amps either -- but the differences are often smaller between instances of amp models than I used to think years ago.

Now I went through a phase of offloading gear a couple of years ago. That included some tube amps, digital units and many guitars.

At the time, I was using ax8 often for recording. I got FM3 and had Kemper. I felt that Kemper was able to do a pretty good job EQ matching my tube amps. It could fool me on some blind tests, especially without careful listening, even if differences were usually obvious when playing. What was played also made a difference; I knew that in certain spots on my guitar neck they'd pop out more.

On that end, there were things about my Kemper profiles that felt relatively weird.

Some low notes wouldn't quite bloom like my amps would, even considering differences between my amps. There seemed to be a Kemper blueprint all around. It was hard to miss when monitoring was fine, especially for feel. It's as if there was this more limited "skeleton" of a tube amp Kemper had, and EQ matching wouldn't sufficiently mask it.

How did fm3 do?

Well -- in some cases I could spot fairly obvious EQ differences in ABX blind tests. I could also feel them while playing, tube amps through load box, same IR as Kemper and FAS and unit. And fractal didn't have amp sims representative of my amps here at the time.

And yet... where Kemper seemed to fail, at least to some relative extend (I say "relative" to emphasize this), the FM3 SEEMED to deliver. Even if some of the EQ was a bit off compared to Kemper, which EQ matches as part of profiting, usually I was happier by the fm3 end result.

This is still a limited experience for sure. Don't take this as some word of god. I'm a damn cat.

But having the tube amps there as well as fm3 and Kemper did make think that fractal modelling is quite accurate in the tests I conducted, according to own standards for this. Meaning: it could fool me in ABX tests, using the same IR, especially after some deep tweaking and targeting EQ in some more challenging cases (no eq matching, usually sufficient to go by ear).

In terms of feel, the response felt closer to something quite elemental in the real amps right there than Kemper managed to do.

In short: I believe fractal modelling is fairly "accurate". I'm pretty sure it isn't perfect, evident by the constant updates where there's always something that's now suddenly better and accurater. I doubt that train is about to come to a halt any time soon.

And many people seem to have a similar experience. They compare to their amps and the results are pretty good -- the gist of the tone. Not having fractal's amp isn't absolutely required to get a fairly good view of this imo, at least assuming the amplifiers aren't quite massively different.

But considering you specifically don't have access to amps (perhaps) close enough to the amp sims... I'm not quite sure what the best way to determine how close the sims are would be. You could go by tests some people post, of course. But the feel factor will be hard to judge, and there aren't as many tests of this nature for fractal amp sims like there are for some other units.

It's just not something people using FAS gear do as much as some others, for example Kemper users. But there are some good tests for sure, even if people don't have fractal's exact amps.
 
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For people who don't really play tube amps and don't have access to play a Friedman, vintage Fenders and Marshalls, etc., how do we know that the amp models are extremely close to the amps that they're modeling? The amp models sound very good obviously, but do they sound almost dead on to the real deal?

You can prove it to yourself easily, even without access to the real gear, by reading about the equipment your favorite guitar players use or watching rig rundowns, then watching and listening to them live or in videos and taking note of the gear behind them. High quality audio is essential, something captured from the FOH, not from some audience member with a camera or phone. Listen to multiple concerts and studio sessions, then look for others using similar gear and notice the difference in sound between them to get an idea of the range of tones the equipment can have, and once you have that sound in your head, you have a starting point for comparing the real gear to what the modeler can do.

Because everyone hears and wants something different Fractal doesn't model a particular artist's sound, they model the gear as accurately as they can and it's up to us to adjust the models appropriately.

Cliff talks about the accuracy periodically as it’s something he’s staked his, and the company’s, reputation on. He is open about his pursuit and writes about the various forms that this takes in his Tech Notes, in postings in the forums, here and in other places, and in the Wiki, where @yek has managed to find and quote them.

For instance:
Regarding the Cygnus amp modeling in the current generation of products he said:
It can be a bit shocking at first. Those "vintagey" amps are quite a bit different in some cases. Spitty, gnarly, nasty, angry sounding. The "polished" sound is gone. The low end is tighter. High gain amps growl and chug with a vocal quality. Medium gain amps purr like a big cat. Low gain amps sound big and chimey. The whole impetus for this was I was doing some critical listening and I noticed that certain amp models didn't have the same distortion "texture" as the real amp. The amps sounded like rubbing two rocks together while the models sounded more like sandpaper. There was also a vocal quality. The amps went "chug, chug, yowwwwww" while the models went "chit, chit, yeeeeee". That led to a complete rewrite of the preamp algorithms. What I learned from that I applied to improvements in the power amp algorithms." [8]
What I do is try to replicate a real tube amp as accurately as possible as that is the gold standard. Cygnus is demonstrably more accurate. I have the math and measurements that prove it. IMO it makes playing the amps more enjoyable. It may make recording require some more work, just like you would with a real tube amp. I don't know as I haven't tried that. For now if you don't like the changes go back to 15.01 or try some of the advanced tweaks. One of the things that Cygnus models more accurately is bias excursion and, in general, there is more bias excursion than before. You may not like the sound of bias excursion but it is part of what makes a real tube amp sound and feel the way it does. So one tweak to try is to reduce Master Bias Excursion or any of the individual bias excursion parameters. The other thing with Cyngus is the power tube bias. The previous firmware biased the virtual power tubes a bit hot in comparison to real amps. This was necessary because of the algorithm to prevent unwanted crossover distortion. The new algorithms are more accurate and, as a result, the power tube bias matches the real amps. If you want that old sound increase the Power Tube Grid Bias. Try around 0.6 to start." [9]

There are many examples of presets people have made that sound astoundingly like the sound of different artists. The sounds are in there.

I strongly recommend spending time reading through every article in the Tech Notes and the Wiki. There’s a huge amount of information that has been captured there, but beyond that you will get an insight into the man himself and how driven he is toward modeling the amps as accurately as possible, their warts and all. His consistent drive to improve and unwillingness to compromise in this are what we have learned to trust.
 
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FWIW the only amp I have been able to directly compare is the Orange AD30. However I did not have the ability to run it through an IR of my exact Matamp cab.

Therefore, unsurprisingly they sounded different in the room but I'm convinced that was entirely down to the Cab Vs IR being used. The "feel" of the amp was absolutely indistinguishable.
 
Having never owned one of the high end amps in the list, the short answer is "no" I won't be able to tell if they are accurate. From a bottoms up approach, having owned various pieces of early emulation pedals and tried various VSTs on my search of what I thought it ought to be. I can honestly say the AXE FX3 is the best piece of gear I have owned.

I can't tell if an AXE FX 3 model can replicate all the little nuances an original model should. But I can definitely tell the sound and feel of my guitar playing with that amp is way better than the older modelers I have used.

I've always seen my purchase of the AXE FX3 as buying a big box of a gazillion crayons, if I want to paint something my palette is big and the result is satisfying to my needs. Singled out amps is like buying a subset of colors, you can make great art but there's just so much you can do with them.

In the end, my sound accuracy search began not of an amp model but of a guitar tone from my favorite bands. The deeper I dug the more I learned those sounds I wanted to replicate have so many layers of production that I needed to change my axioms of tone searching. The versatility and flexibility of my palette out weights my need or curiosity for amp sound accuracy.

Just a thought.
 
I've always seen my purchase of the AXE FX3 as buying a big box of a gazillion crayons, if I want to paint something my palette is big and the result is satisfying to my needs. Singled out amps is like buying a subset of colors, you can make great art but there's just so much you can do with them.
Finally, something better than this:


If you had this box of crayons, you were probably a rich kid....
 
From what I’ve seen and done, if you know what you’re doing when tweaking, you can easily recreate 95% of anything. The missing 5% is the annoying radio stations and feedback that come thru amps.
 
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