Horror of horrors, I could hear my sound in my cab.

[BBN]

You're already getting the same advice, but I'll add to it.....put your Axe through the PA.
Your dislike of your cab sound is why I use FRFR. Going back to cabs (aimed at my ears) sounds too beamy to me.
I even eliminated a FRFR behind me and now just use a wedge in front of me (aimed back at me obviously).
This gives me much more control over the FOH mix.

As far as your situation, it is similar to mine.
I'm the singer, a guitar player, and running the PA (which is a X32 rack).
With the Axe and the X32, you have a perfect combination to get a killer sound out front.

If you have a second guitar player, have him play your guitar while you go out front with an iPad and tweak your FOH sound.
Or....you can loop a riff on your Axe, then walk out front (with zero stage sound), and dial in your Axe peacefully, using an iPad/X32.

You can even loop a phrase/song that the rest of the band can play to, so you can do the entire mix out front, while your Axe is looping.

 

[guitarmike]

Really? With what type of FRFR have you experienced this? Because I've been using Xitones for several years now, and I can listen to them from anywhere and there is no beaming. Maybe that is possible with non-coaxial designs?

"Wide dispersion throughout a speaker’s bandwidth is difficult to achieve. Most high-frequency and bass/midrange drive units have good dispersion at the lower limits of their frequency range, but they naturally start to beam as they reach their upper-frequency limits. With high-performance high-frequency drivers beaming occurs beyond audibility. Beaming from midrange drivers, however, occurs within the audible range. Speakers with beaming problems will not sound the same in all areas of a room. They may sound balanced in one area, but nasal, dull, or even harsh and shrill in other areas". This statement is from some technical speaker jargon and generally reflects the intent of my statement.

...admittedly, excellent quality speakers systems can limit the beaming effect. Just a potential issue to be aware of. Having the frfr pointing directly at your head at close range vs what is heard out in the room may sound different...

 

[lqdsnddist]

"Wide dispersion throughout a speaker’s bandwidth is difficult to achieve. Most high-frequency and bass/midrange drive units have good dispersion at the lower limits of their frequency range, but they naturally start to beam as they reach their upper-frequency limits. With high-performance high-frequency drivers beaming occurs beyond audibility. Beaming from midrange drivers, however, occurs within the audible range. Speakers with beaming problems will not sound the same in all areas of a room. They may sound balanced in one area, but nasal, dull, or even harsh and shrill in other areas". This statement is from some technical speaker jargon and generally reflects the intent of my statement.

...admittedly, excellent quality speakers systems can limit the beaming effect. Just a potential issue to be aware of. Having the frfr pointing directly at your head at close range vs what is heard out in the room may sound different...

Yes it is difficult, but that is a large part of what makes a good FRFR speaker cost what they do. The Atomic CLR for example has a very flat response of about +/-3db over about a 90 degree spread, which is quite good. That means even when your not directly in front of it you still get a very accurate sound with no perceived beaming.

My CLR sounds good, and plenty loud, pretty much anywhere I move around on a stage. My 2x12 Avatar cab on the other hand was night and day different when I stepped just a few feet off axis.

Likewise, my CLR sounds good at 30 feet, as it does at 3 feet, its kind of the whole point of the thing

 

[unix-guy]

"Wide dispersion throughout a speaker’s bandwidth is difficult to achieve. Most high-frequency and bass/midrange drive units have good dispersion at the lower limits of their frequency range, but they naturally start to beam as they reach their upper-frequency limits. With high-performance high-frequency drivers beaming occurs beyond audibility. Beaming from midrange drivers, however, occurs within the audible range. Speakers with beaming problems will not sound the same in all areas of a room. They may sound balanced in one area, but nasal, dull, or even harsh and shrill in other areas". This statement is from some technical speaker jargon and generally reflects the intent of my statement.

...admittedly, excellent quality speakers systems can limit the beaming effect. Just a potential issue to be aware of. Having the frfr pointing directly at your head at close range vs what is heard out in the room may sound different...

I suspect that is referencing non-coaxial designs. In a coaxial design the high end driver passes through the cone of driver.

With a proper crossover, I'm not sure why a mid-range driver would ever get to the upper end of its frequency response.

Anyway, I'm not an expert... I've just never heard of beaming in an FRFR cab and certainly never experienced anything like that.

 

[TG3K]

...This is a clip of the band live (I don't think we are that terrible) I miked up the full band for the recording but only had the Vox, sax and keys going out of the pa.

Very nice playing all around, man. The band sounds great. Seems to me that kind of music is a perfect candidate for running your guitar through the PA instead of relying on your backline to put it out to the audience. Doing so doesn't need to translate to louder, but it makes it easier to minimize hotspots and keep things balanced throughout the room. The more you're running through the PA, the better chance you have of keeping things as nicely balanced as your video.

Similar to your band, our band in playing softer, lighter material. We typically don't mic the drums (and our drummer plays pretty softly compared to most others). The PA is carrying primarily vocals, the acoustic guitar, the guitar synth, and my electric guitars running through the Axe-Fx. The bass is playing through a relatively small Hartke combo with four 10s. We run a line out from the bass amp to the PA, but have very little of him actually running through FOH. His moderate stage volume is usually about all that's needed to match the drums. Then it's simply a matter of setting the guitars and vocals appropriately to match them. Once those are set, we generally don't make any volume tweaks during the show. I'm running my guitars wirelessly, so I can step out into the room if I need to confirm the balance is OK, but very little changes from gig to gig. We use a Behringer XR18 mixer, so once we've got things dialed in for a particular venue, I can simply recall those settings and run with it. The only times we do an actual sound check are when we're playing a new venue. I generally do that out in the room with the tablet, and the band plays a song or two that I don't play on. That lets me get the other three guys (and their vocals) balanced. Then when I join them on stage, I can adjust my own volume based on what I'm hearing on my wedge monitor. (Which, as I mentioned upthread, is essentially the FOH mix.) Once those settings are saved, the next time we play at that venue we just plug in, do a quick line check to make sure each input on the PA it working, and then start the show.

You might try using no backline at all for the guitar, and using your FRFR speaker in front of you as a monitor. (At rehearsal, of course.) You could run the FOH mix (post-fader) to that, and have a good idea how things sound to the audience balance-wise. (If need be, you could bump the level of your guitar and vocals a few dB in that monitor as Eanna described above.) In our band, I share a single wedge monitor with the acoustic guitarist (who also does a lot of the vocals), so he's also hearing essentially a FOH mix, too. The other two guys get their own monitor mixes, adjusted to their preferences.

 

[hippietim]

@andyp13 - first, I want to say that I dig the band. Nice groove and you guys don't step all over each other so there's a lot of room for dynamics. Very cool.

As for playing FRFR vs guitar cab, I have gone back and forth. For years I did the FRFR setup with my Axe. Then I started a Stones tribute band and it felt sacrilegious to use a modeler to do that material (even though it would have sounded great). Then the next band I went 4CM with the FX8 and then the AX8. My current band I'm back to FRFR with the AX8 and CLR. It's great. Really great. It's the best sounding rig I've ever used really. Ironically, we're resurrecting the Stones band and the other guitar player uses a Kemper with a CLR so I'm going to stick with the AX8 and CLR this time around.

The one common thing in all of these bands and various configurations is that we always run guitars through FOH. If you don't, you are almost guaranteeing a poor mix in most rooms. Your guitar will only be properly mixed at specific spots in the room. I see bands all the time that don't mic the guitars and something is always lost if you're not in the perfect spot and there's definitely someone getting way too much guitar.

I don't sing much so I'm the guy that walks out front during the first tune and then a spot check another time or two. This stupid simple strategy has worked for years and we always get compliments on the sound of the band. And guys have to have discipline about stage volume. I've been fortunate in the last ten years to have not been in a band with another guitar player that suffered from the dreaded gradual increase in volume all night. We always set and forget, and play the music. I wish I could say the same about drummers.

So in your band, I'd run the guitar to FOH and use something FRFR to monitor only (not fill the room). I'd send the saxophone player out front to walk the room to check the mix.

 

[andyp13]

@andyp13 - first, I want to say that I dig the band. Nice groove and you guys don't step all over each other so there's a lot of room for dynamics. Very cool.

As for playing FRFR vs guitar cab, I have gone back and forth. For years I did the FRFR setup with my Axe. Then I started a Stones tribute band and it felt sacrilegious to use a modeler to do that material (even though it would have sounded great). Then the next band I went 4CM with the FX8 and then the AX8. My current band I'm back to FRFR with the AX8 and CLR. It's great. Really great. It's the best sounding rig I've ever used really. Ironically, we're resurrecting the Stones band and the other guitar player uses a Kemper with a CLR so I'm going to stick with the AX8 and CLR this time around.

The one common thing in all of these bands and various configurations is that we always run guitars through FOH. If you don't, you are almost guaranteeing a poor mix in most rooms. Your guitar will only be properly mixed at specific spots in the room. I see bands all the time that don't mic the guitars and something is always lost if you're not in the perfect spot and there's definitely someone getting way too much guitar.

I don't sing much so I'm the guy that walks out front during the first tune and then a spot check another time or two. This stupid simple strategy has worked for years and we always get compliments on the sound of the band. And guys have to have discipline about stage volume. I've been fortunate in the last ten years to have not been in a band with another guitar player that suffered from the dreaded gradual increase in volume all night. We always set and forget, and play the music. I wish I could say the same about drummers.

So in your band, I'd run the guitar to FOH and use something FRFR to monitor only (not fill the room). I'd send the saxophone player out front to walk the room to check the mix.

So do you guys mic up the kit and bass also?

I will need to make sure my PA can handle the bass guitar also - as not knowing a great deal about PA's im always frightend I damage it...
I have 2x12" Subs (Samson D11200 700w each and 2x Yamaha DXR10's 1100w (700w continuous).
I am looking at HK Audio Line Base along with two extra passive subs (the Subs are 10" but I would have two on each side) anyone heard one of these rigs?

 

[hippietim]

So do you guys mic up the kit and bass also?

I will need to make sure my PA can handle the bass guitar also - as not knowing a great deal about PA's im always frightend I damage it...
I have 2x12" Subs (Samson D11200 700w each and 2x Yamaha DXR10's 1100w (700w continuous).
I am looking at HK Audio Line Base along with two extra passive subs (the Subs are 10" but I would have two on each side) anyone heard one of these rigs?

We always mic'd the kit - at least partially. Always the kick and at least two other mics. There are a couple of 3 mic techniques that work well for drums in a lot of rooms. Usually, it'd be 5 or 6 though.

We usually ran the bass through FOH as well. But you can get away without this since a bass amp can handle most small clubs no problem and bass rigs doesn't typically suffer from directionality problems anywhere near as bad as a guitar. A six string bassist that spends too much time in guitar territory could be an issue but then it's probably good if most people don't have to hear that

 

[StickMan]

ThelmoRego - We don't sound terrible, I just worry about being too loud if I mic up the whole band and also not hearing my sound and level out front as we are setup behind the pa. this is why I am wanting to try my FRFR Q12 for backline.
Though I think I may try setting up the full pa at a rehearsal and mike up the band and see where it goes.
Do you guys who go direct from the axe to FOH go mono or stereo? What is the norm.....

This is a clip of the band live (I don't think we are that terrible) I miked up the full band for the recording but only had the Vox, sax and keys going out of the pa.

Since you had everything miked up for the recording, this doesn't actually shed any light on what the mix was like out in the audience.

Great band! Awesome groove and sound.

 

[∞Fractals]

I've just never heard of beaming in an FRFR cab

In the audiophile world, beaming can and does happen. I've even experienced a pair of very high-end prototype speakers with several small tweeter arrays (like 2x8) which were quite apparent to beam at 90* off axis prominently!

Point being, that just because something is FRFR doesn't mean it won't beam. It appears that XiItones and CLRs have limited (or rather Optimized) their designs to behave fairly well in this sense.

 

[andyp13]

Well, I just got back from a rehearsal - it wasn't with a full pa as we had too much to do, however I took my Q12 FRFR to try -
At first it did not sound good, but after much tweeting my rhythm sound started to shape up ( or was it that my ears were getting used to it), my rhythm sound was getting quite close to what I had in my guitar cab. My solo sound (using the AC drive block) left a lot to be desired and even though I got it to sound better during the evening it still left a bit to be desired. I also use a slight overdrive rhythm sound on some songs - usually the 808 drive block with the 'drive' control virtually off, but in the Q12 it did not sound good at all, I seemed to have lost that valve type breakup sound I get out of a real cab.
Still it's definitely worth continuing with this struggle as I am sure I will get there with it...I will need to try different amps and drives etc....so it could take a while.

 

[guitarmike]

If you run the bass through the system you may want to use some type of pre-amp. There are many devices designed to work with bass, some better than others. This is primarily for tone shaping. Your guys amp may have a pre-amp out that would probably work great.

Also, in my personal experience, I have had issues with the bass run through a foh system with subs. Theoretically subs simply extend the lows down as low as possible without accentuating any frequencies. In other words everything is frfr from top to bottom. In practice this is seldom the case. Very low frequencies are accentuated and there may even be a point at which the sub and the main are both producing the same frequencies. This, combined with the fact that the room it self has the most adverse effect in the lower frequency range, can make running the bass direct problematic. The bass guitar is more prone to notes that boom out and takeover the room when run direct.....in my experience.
These problems can happen with a normal bass amp but are less likely. Speakers are filters!

Don't be afraid to raise the cut off frequency for the bass guitar frequencies.
Maybe lower the crossover frequency for the subs.

Just speaking from personal experience to try and help you quickly solve some potential issues. I was in a group for 4 years that ran everything direct (even the drums) and this was the main issue where the bass guitar was concerned. We solved the problem by lowering the crossover point on the subs much lower than you might think. You may not even need the bass guitar in the subs. I approach subs with the idea that they are felt more than heard.

We also had an x32 and tried to use it to cross over the speakers. It was a fail. Neither did utilizing the cut offs on the speakers (qsc kw112 with kw118 sub). We went with simple outboard crossover unit and had much better results.

Once we got it right, it was great.

Ultimately, everything that has been said in this thread is true. Your band can definitely benefit from a frfr approach.

 

[dogman211296]

Not to say I told you so, but I told you so lol.

Guitar cabs are pretty harsh and directional in many cases. What the audience hears either micd'd, or direct if a backline situation, can be a very different sound that what your hearing on stage, especially when your listening off-axis.

Same thing goes for sticking a mic in front of a cab, your still hearing the guitar cab direct, but the close mic tone sounds rather different, its colored by the mic, its affects by the proximity et al.

Now this doesn't mean a guitar cab "in the room", or "on the stage" doesn't sound. It can sound amazing, to the guitarist when they are standing in a certain sweetspot, BUT.... is that the tone everyone else is hearing too ? usually not.


As such, the love for FRFR....the tone your hearing coming from the wedge/backline speaker is the same tone that the audience is hearing, in that both are the sound of a close mic'd guitar cab, and because of the dispersion, your sound remains pretty constant as you move around stage.

There is a reason so many guys went away from mic'ing guitar cabs live and started going direct. Its just a more consistent, and versatile, tone night after night, with less fuzz

It took me a very long time to get over the paranoia of what I hear on stage is not what everyone else hears from FOH and my backline standing 20 ft away. I would be constantly touching knobs after everything was setup and the sound guy assured me it sounded great.
If you adjust your tone while standing out where the crowd would be you'll get what its supposed to sound like. Then when you get right up on your amp it will sound totally different to your ears. You just have to trust what you heard out there. It doesn't change, your ears do when you're that close....

 

[TG3K]

So do you guys mic up the kit and bass also?...

In our case, we don't usually mic the drums because we're relatively low-volume and they are loud enough to be heard without the mics. We run a line out from the bass guitar amp to the mixer, but only add a little bit of bass to FOH, mostly to add a little presence to the bass parts. Most of the bass heard in the room is coming from the bass amp. We don't use subs in the small venues (50 - 150 seats) where we typically play. We do use subs, as well as drum mics, at most outdoor shows. But the subs are only carrying the low-end thump from the bass guitar and bass drum. (And being it's a Washburn acoustic bass, we're not talking a lot of low-end thump anyway.) For the kind of music it looks like you're doing, I suspect you already have more subs than you need for most small venues.

I seriously doubt you'll damage your PA running bass and drums through it, as long as you're running at volumes that don't make ears bleed. When I first started playing with this band (which was originally an acoustic trio), I was concerned that adding my electric guitar to the FOH would overwhelm the PA (a pair of QSC K10s, eventually upgraded to K12s). It didn't take long to prove that my fears were unfounded.

 

[Rex]

I seriously doubt you'll damage your PA running bass and drums through it, as long as you're running at volumes that don't make ears bleed. When I first started playing with this band (which was originally an acoustic trio), I was concerned that adding my electric guitar to the FOH would overwhelm the PA (a pair of QSC K10s, eventually upgraded to K12s). It didn't take long to prove that my fears were unfounded.

This. If your PA speakers can handle what the PA's power amp can deliver, you'll be fine.

 

[666was999]

With a guitar cab to get away the beam and get a better dispersion and to avoid that you stand too close in front of your cab and palm all the sound with your back my 2cts/ what I did and what works well:
Use two 1x12 open back cabs, put them left and right in your back (60 degrees angle or so?) and aim at your ears (put them on a stand or at the ground angled).
You then have both beams at your ears and therefore your can hear the guitar very loud and by far louder than anyone else there. No one in the audience get's both beams in their faces, no need to worry about that. No one in the audience get's no guitar at all because it's covered by your back.
You could do the same with two FRFR monitors in case you go that route, because in small venues even an FRFR has the problem with your back in front of the loudspeaker.

 

[andyp13]

You might try using no backline at all for the guitar, and using your FRFR speaker in front of you as a monitor. (At rehearsal, of course.) You could run the FOH mix (post-fader) to that, and have a good idea how things sound to the audience balance-wise. (If need be, you could bump the level of your guitar and vocals a few dB in that monitor as Eanna described above.) In our band, I share a single wedge monitor with the acoustic guitarist (who also does a lot of the vocals), so he's also hearing essentially a FOH mix, too. The other two guys get their own monitor mixes, adjusted to their preferences.

My Q12 FRFR is passive, would it be ok to take a 'monitor out' from the x32 rack into my matrix fx800 power amp and then to my Q12?
This way I can also put my vocals through it etc...