hmm.... non-axe-related phenomenon. Any suggestions?

JJunkie

JJunkie

Power User
Hi,

playing single notes on higher-gain patches.

There is poor note clarity, almost like a series of pulses or beats that occurs shortly after picking.

You can listen to the attached mp3 of a 2 second long direct recording of a single note (you may need monitors or headphones to hear well). Also attached spectral images of the same recorded interval, clearly showing where the "beats" occur.

A a result, I cant get my solos to sound smooth...... Im not sure if its intermodulation or not. I thought that intermod was a speaker thing, but I use 2way frfr and anyway the clip and spectral images is of a direct recording.

I dont think its axefx-specific coz this happens on any higher-gain patch, but the effect seems to be more pronounced on the axe than it is on my JCM800. Is it a guitar setup or pickup thing? I use gibson LP guitars.

Without fail, there are always 2 "beats" that occur the loudest, though the speed at which they happen varies for different notes.

I have played around quite alot with the axe with trying to reduce the presence of this effect. Changing "clip type" on drive block from my usual LV tube to 4558/diode seemed to help a little, and that is what you hear in the clip, but is still not good enough.

Any suggestions on where to from here would be great.....
 
When did you last change your strings? (Serious question)

I was getting something very similar to this and it was a result of having old, worn out strings.
 
Stringtheorist said:
When did you last change your strings? (Serious question)

I was getting something very similar to this and it was a result of having old, worn out strings.
Click to expand...

to be honest its been a while.... I'll change em over and report back in 24hrs
 
JJunkie said:
Stringtheorist said:
When did you last change your strings? (Serious question)

I was getting something very similar to this and it was a result of having old, worn out strings.
Click to expand...

to be honest its been a while.... I'll change em over and report back in 24hrs
Click to expand...


brand new strings and..... Its still happening
 
Stringtheorist said:
JJunkie said:
brand new strings and..... Its still happening
Click to expand...
Can you record a longer clip of the problem noise? The last one was too short to detect anything.
Click to expand...
sure here's some more of what I recorded the other night with the old strings though - it sounds much the same with new strings
 
What's the distance between the pickups and the strings?

If the PUs are too close the magnetic field blocks the string vibration.
 
GiRa said:
What's the distance between the pickups and the strings?

If the PUs are too close the magnetic field blocks the string vibration.
Click to expand...

good tip! my pups were pretty close. moving them away from the strings had a massive effect, but its really hard to position them to get the note clarity i am aiming for. Even when set as far from the strings as possible (too muddy for me to play with), some notes would still cause trouble. Im still playing around with the pups, looking for a sweet spot. Thanks heaps
 
Sup?
Intonation out maybe?

Upon thinking about this and listening to the clip a few more times,,,
does your guitar do this with any other gear?
how are you recording direct....S/pdif from the axe?,,analog out of the axe into,,,??
what kind of interface?
is there anything else on that AC line,,Air-con, fridge,,lights etc?
is the axe/interface/DAW all on the same plug?



MOSHON
DAVE
 
Are you muting the other strings when playing a note on one? It sounds like there's a very quiet low E ringing during the 1st and 3rd notes of longer.mp3. A sympathetic G# harmonic from that string would explain odd sounds when playing a fretted G#.
 
moshwitz said:
Sup?
Intonation out maybe?

Upon thinking about this and listening to the clip a few more times,,,
does your guitar do this with any other gear?
how are you recording direct....S/pdif from the axe?,,analog out of the axe into,,,??
what kind of interface?
is there anything else on that AC line,,Air-con, fridge,,lights etc?
is the axe/interface/DAW all on the same plug?
Click to expand...
the intonation required some correction after the string change but didnt have any affect on the noises. I use axe analog outs into a mixer (mackie 402vzl3) that goes both to monitors and interface (maudio audiophile2496) the interface isnt the problem as i hear this through the monitors while I play. I only have 2 wall plugs in the room - one feeds all my computer stuff and the other feeds all the music stuff (axe, keyboard, mixer, U.S monitors powered through a step-down transformer coz Im in Australia).

Are you muting the other strings when playing a note on one? It sounds like there's a very quiet low E ringing during the 1st and 3rd notes of longer.mp3. A sympathetic G# harmonic from that string would explain odd sounds when playing a fretted G#.
Click to expand...

yeah, but you compelled me to try it again this time muting with both hands and a foot - just to make sure - y'know, in case I was muting over a wierd harmonic by mistake. I can definitely cross that one of my list now!
 
Sixstring said:
Have you tried this experiment with a different guitar?
Click to expand...

yeah, but its an LP also.

I have continued to play around with the pickup height, but have not found an arrangement where I can achieve clear notes. It just seems to change the beat rate (from say, a single distinct beat to many small rapid beats that make the note sound like its oscillating in volume) I dropped my humbuckers as low as they could go and I still have this problem.

I have been PM'd with a suggestion that this sounds like something called crossover distortion and that it may actually be modelled in the axe fx - is that true? See the below wiki page about it. Its a new distortion to me and there are suggestions on how to fix, if anyone cares to translate into lay mans terms, (e.g. can adjustment of Axe fx power tube bias solve this, etc) I would be eternally grateful.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossover_distortion>
 
ok so I dont think its crossover distortion. It still happens when power tube bias is set to 1.0.

One more discovery... the beats also happen differently depending on where I pick the string................................................................
 
JJunkie said:
ok so I dont think its crossover distortion. It still happens when power tube bias is set to 1.0.

One more discovery... the beats also happen differently depending on where I pick the string................................................................
Click to expand...

If that's the case I doubt there's anything you can do to get rid of the problem other than picking softer or in a location that will minimize the beats. Have you tested the guitar straight into the test equipment you used to shot the picture? It might be interesting to see what you find.
 
Sixstring said:
JJunkie said:
ok so I dont think its crossover distortion. It still happens when power tube bias is set to 1.0.

One more discovery... the beats also happen differently depending on where I pick the string................................................................
Click to expand...

If that's the case I doubt there's anything you can do to get rid of the problem other than picking softer or in a location that will minimize the beats. Have you tested the guitar straight into the test equipment you used to shot the picture? It might be interesting to see what you find.
Click to expand...

Right then, I tried a few more things out:

1) Dry guitar signal - I cant hear any problems. sounds fine. This is also the case for all clean patches. I had a look at the output graphs and all looks well to me.

2) I applied an overdrive to the same dry signal within Adobe Audition 3.0. And what happens? look at the image... there is definately a single "beat" approximately 200ms after the pick attack. I assume that this is a natural phenomenon of the guitar - I dunno, maybe its the point where the string's vibration becomes uniform after being disturbed by the pick?? does anyone know better?

3) I played through the axe-fx using a patch containing a single drive block (all other blocks in the chain were shunts). Again, the beat at 200ms after picking.

This makes me wonder why, when I play into higher-gain amp blocks, that beats occur at say 400-500ms after picking as per the opening post (with the exception of recto orange - the beats happen after 200ms!?)

Cheers
 
Everything I'm about to say is complete speculation by me based on my elementary knowledge of physics and fairly deep knowledge of how said physics work in relation to a guitar.

The first thing I would check is plug the guitar into a tuner and pick the string. Does the tune jump? By how much? Normally, as long as you're not slamming the string, it shouldn't jump very much. If it is jumping by more than 2 cents, your neck joint is flexing. This information is taken from various sources, but the most recognizable one is Dan Erlewine's guitar player repair guide.

When you pick the string, there are many forces at work You have the string vibrating in a circular fashion and also the neck and wood are vibrating. If your neck joint is flexing, the string is literally getting longer and shorter as it vibrates, this causes it to vibrate faster and slower as the neck joint settles. This variance is going to be more detectable with distortion and in extreme circumstances sounds like a wah pedal for a split second.

It could also be that the distortion clipping is producing some weird partials that smooth out as the natural energy of the string dissipates. http://www.geofex.com/effxfaq/distn101.htm

Again, could all be complete BS in relation to your issue. Jay will most likely rip this post into tiny bits.
 
Sidivan said:
Everything I'm about to say is complete speculation by me based on my elementary knowledge of physics and fairly deep knowledge of how said physics work in relation to a guitar.

The first thing I would check is plug the guitar into a tuner and pick the string. Does the tune jump? By how much? Normally, as long as you're not slamming the string, it shouldn't jump very much. If it is jumping by more than 2 cents, your neck joint is flexing. This information is taken from various sources, but the most recognizable one is Dan Erlewine's guitar player repair guide.

When you pick the string, there are many forces at work You have the string vibrating in a circular fashion and also the neck and wood are vibrating. If your neck joint is flexing, the string is literally getting longer and shorter as it vibrates, this causes it to vibrate faster and slower as the neck joint settles. This variance is going to be more detectable with distortion and in extreme circumstances sounds like a wah pedal for a split second.

It could also be that the distortion clipping is producing some weird partials that smooth out as the natural energy of the string dissipates. http://www.geofex.com/effxfaq/distn101.htm

Again, could all be complete BS in relation to your issue. Jay will most likely rip this post into tiny bits.
Click to expand...

It would be interesting to find out something that might shed a tiny light on this issue.
 
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