Hiss reamping analog

henryrobinett

Fractal Fanatic
I've mentioned this before since way long ago - back when I had an Ultra and since that was the flagship model. I record most exclusively at 96k. I'm not going to argue about that. I record at 96k as well as most of my clients. I get files and projects at 96k most of the time. This makes reamping with the Fractal boxes an issue. I don't know if there's hiss when doing it 48k/USB. I've never done it that way. So I'm hoping that there's is something I'm doing wrong, like improper gain staging. It's possible but I've tried a variety of methods. I've experienced hiss with an Ultra, II, IIXL, IIXL+ and the III.

I always record three tracks into my DAW: two stereo with effects and one dry for reamping. I record the DI with zero gain at either -10 or +4. I figure guitar is -10 so I should stick with that? Playing back to reamp I also using zero gain. It plays back as is. +4 or -10. It doesn't seem to make a difference mixing them, like recording at +4 and playing it at -10. There is ALWAYS some low level hiss. I cam try and hide it by using a series of low pass filters but that effects the tone, of course. It makes me only reamp as a last resort, which is very unfortunate since I'm starting to record a lot for some albums.

Tips?
 
Ground loop maybe? I think a clip would help. How does the signal get out of the interface? SPDIF?
 
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I've mentioned this before since way long ago - back when I had an Ultra and since that was the flagship model. I record most exclusively at 96k. I'm not going to argue about that. I record at 96k as well as most of my clients. I get files and projects at 96k most of the time. This makes reamping with the Fractal boxes an issue. I don't know if there's hiss when doing it 48k/USB. I've never done it that way. So I'm hoping that there's is something I'm doing wrong, like improper gain staging. It's possible but I've tried a variety of methods. I've experienced hiss with an Ultra, II, IIXL, IIXL+ and the III.

I always record three tracks into my DAW: two stereo with effects and one dry for reamping. I record the DI with zero gain at either -10 or +4. I figure guitar is -10 so I should stick with that? Playing back to reamp I also using zero gain. It plays back as is. +4 or -10. It doesn't seem to make a difference mixing them, like recording at +4 and playing it at -10. There is ALWAYS some low level hiss. I cam try and hide it by using a series of low pass filters but that effects the tone, of course. It makes me only reamp as a last resort, which is very unfortunate since I'm starting to record a lot for some albums.

Tips?
How do you record the DI track?
 
Hey thanks. I use a humbuster 1/4" from Axe Fx III into the DI input of my Metric Halo ULN-8. Analog, not digital so no spdif. Coming out of the interface? I send analog out of one of the channels (channel 5) and that goes to AF III. It's all racked and awkward to get to, but I set it up as described in the manual. I'll look into it later today. I have a session coming up soon. Appreciate it.
 
Hiss during analog reamping is simply a universal truth. That's my experience anyway. High gain analog reamping isn't even practical for me. It wasn't until I went USB with the II that reamping became usable. I'm now married to 48k as a result.
 
Hiss during analog reamping is simply a universal truth. That's my experience anyway. High gain analog reamping isn't even practical for me. It wasn't until I went USB with the II that reamping became usable. I'm now married to 48k as a result.
I think that's probably it.
 
For analog reamping, gain staging is key to keeping your noise level down. Unlike when reamping via USB where your DI level should be unity gain with your guitar's actual output, with analog reamping you want to keep your input signal level as high as possible without clipping to maximize your signal to noise ratio for the DI track. You then send that hot signal back into the Axe III and lower it digitally on the grid before the amp block to match the gain level you would get from the guitar directly.

When you record a weak DI signal via analog, you SNR is not as good, plus when you send it back through the input again to reamp, you are adding even more noise a second time. By recording a hot DI signal, any background noise you pick up gets reduced when you turn that hot signal back down on the grid.
 
For analog reamping, gain staging is key to keeping your noise level down. Unlike when reamping via USB where your DI level should be unity gain with your guitar's actual output, with analog reamping you want to keep your input signal level as high as possible without clipping to maximize your signal to noise ratio for the DI track. You then send that hot signal back into the Axe III and lower it digitally on the grid before the amp block to match the gain level you would get from the guitar directly.

When you record a weak DI signal via analog, you SNR is not as good, plus when you send it back through the input again to reamp, you are adding even more noise a second time. By recording a hot DI signal, any background noise you pick up gets reduced when you turn that hot signal back down on the grid.
That's what I used to do with the Ultra. Some degree of hiss was still unavoidable. The audio interface you use can make a difference too.
 
I solved all my analog reamp issues referenced above by incorporating a device made by Little Labs called the Pepper. No affiliation. At its core it functions as a direct box in that it offers both an instrument input (with adjustable loading) and a instrument output. Between the in and out, however, there are 2 loops. First loop is at pedal level, the second is a balanced +4 line level loop having gain pots for adjusting send and return levels. Inserting the recorder in the line level loop is the solution. In addition to the everyday instrument output (which feeds the Axe) there are 2 more outputs, those being a balanced line level out and a mic level output. Multiple UTC transformers provide isolation everywhere too.

So, the raw guitar signal gets amplified for recording (at line level) and is returned back to guitar level at correct impedance to feed the Axe. All recording occurs before the Axe and it only sees the signal once rather than twice. Another handy feature is a bypass loop around both the pedal and line level loops without negating the isolation features. This lets you directly compare the recorders output vs a direct thru as the Pepper feeds the Axe, and does so without interrupting the signal being recorded. A quick look at the Pepper's flow schematic is worth a thousand words.

A 1176 set all-buttons-in, placed in the loop immediately after the recorder is a riot.
 
Digital to Analog conversion always makes hiss. We experience this putting any digital device in front of a tube amp. There is no escaping it.

I wonder if any audio interfaces have a feature like the Fractal boost/pad feature- it runs the audio signal hot into the D/A and then attenuates it back to normal on the analog side (along with the noise)
 
I solved all my analog reamp issues referenced above by incorporating a device made by Little Labs called the Pepper. No affiliation. At its core it functions as a direct box in that it offers both an instrument input (with adjustable loading) and a instrument output. Between the in and out, however, there are 2 loops. First loop is at pedal level, the second is a balanced +4 line level loop having gain pots for adjusting send and return levels. Inserting the recorder in the line level loop is the solution. In addition to the everyday instrument output (which feeds the Axe) there are 2 more outputs, those being a balanced line level out and a mic level output. Multiple UTC transformers provide isolation everywhere too.

So, the raw guitar signal gets amplified for recording (at line level) and is returned back to guitar level at correct impedance to feed the Axe. All recording occurs before the Axe and it only sees the signal once rather than twice. Another handy feature is a bypass loop around both the pedal and line level loops without negating the isolation features. This lets you directly compare the recorders output vs a direct thru as the Pepper feeds the Axe, and does so without interrupting the signal being recorded. A quick look at the Pepper's flow schematic is worth a thousand words.

A 1176 set all-buttons-in, placed in the loop immediately after the recorder is a riot.
Interesting. I'll have to look into this. In the years before Fractal I always used Milennia's TD-1 to reamp. It might do this as well. I still have mine and use it on electric bass always. I've never experienced hiss before I used the Fractal units.

https://www.mil-media.com/TD-1.html
 
Interesting. I'll have to look into this. In the years before Fractal I always used Milennia's TD-1 to reamp. It might do this as well. I still have mine and use it on electric bass always. I've never experienced hiss before I used the Fractal units.
@henryrobinett I'm interested in what you end up finding out on this front. I have a ULN8 and just bought an AxeFXIII. I'm currently looking into best ways for connecting. I was planning to go digital and use AES or to see if it made more sense to aggregate the two interfaces. I can test a similar analog routing setup for you to see if we get the same noise if that helps in debugging.
 
@henryrobinett I'm interested in what you end up finding out on this front. I have a ULN8 and just bought an AxeFXIII. I'm currently looking into best ways for connecting. I was planning to go digital and use AES or to see if it made more sense to aggregate the two interfaces. I can test a similar analog routing setup for you to see if we get the same noise if that helps in debugging.
Hey Nick. That would be fantastic. Lately I've been avoiding reampnig altogether. When I have more time I'll do more research.
 
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