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High gain amp simulation feedback solutions?

RamboMadCow

Inspired
I'm hoping a few of you guys have some experience with moderately high gain amp settings in a live situation and can help me out. I'm in a Metallica tribute band and I've been trying to get their current live tone. It's not insanely high gain like Slayer, but it seems to have enough that I'm generating quite a lot of feedback. I've tried using a PEQ, which seems to help a bit, though I only found 1 primary frequency. But that does end up scooping my sound. It seems a lot of the feedback is coming from my mids. When I use the noise gates to try and bring this down, I have to use enough that it tends to affect the over all low end thump a bit and definitely decreases my sustain.

Anyone here have any experience in trying to get a moderately high gain amp with the least amount of feedback? It'd be great to achieve this with 0 noise gates if possible so that in a live setting I have plenty of room to add a bit when necessary without impacting overall sound/sustain.

I've uploaded 2 presets I've been playing around with trying to reduce this feedback. You'll see I have an Output 3 and Input 3 in the middle of the chain. This was an attempt to use this as an FX send/return and use a Decimator G-String noise gate pedal. This also affected my overall sound and sustain quite negatively.

My entire setup is: ESP Snakebyte with EMG Het set pickups -> Shure wireless router set to unity gain -> Axe FX 3 ->
Output 1 -> Matrix GT1600FX -> 2x Matrix 212 FRFR cabinets.
Output 2 -> 3 way splitter for house PA tap and our own mixer that's hooked up to a closed IEM system.

For my first show, I thought it was the FRFR cabinets making this squeal, so I turned output 1 to 0. I ended up having no stage volume, but the PA was find since it gets it's feed from output2. Even with output 1 off, I was sending feedback over the PA. So it doesn't seem to be the FRFR cabinets.

I apologize for the length post. Wanted to try and get all of the details I could think of written in case anyone has an advice/suggestions.
 

Attachments

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  • Recto+Diezel.syx
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boardwlk17

Power User
That's strange your getting feedback through foh with no monitors close to you, maybe its an internal feedback have you tried turning down the gain some
 

RamboMadCow

Inspired
There were some House monitors that were in front of me. I only sent vocal through them at the time of the show. But even at my rehearsal space there wasn't any monitors and I was getting feed back. I've currently been doing research for the gain stuff. Maybe I was using too much? I'm not sure. I'm just trying to avoid having to deal with excessive feedback like that for my next show in April.
 

RamboMadCow

Inspired
My issue with the "you can easily use too much" - It's Metallica, while not the most distorted, it should still be completely saturated. Right now, I'm at that point where palm mutes on a single string simply has "grit" but is not heavily distorted. Full power chords sound distorted enough. So I'm not even close to normal, current day "heavy metal" standards in terms of levels of distortion. How is it I get so much feedback with as little (by comparison here) distortion for a proper Metallica sound?

I'm making assumptions since I haven't seen many complaints from others about this that guys running ultra high gain aren't encountering this issue. Though this is why I uploaded my presets in case anyone had time to poke through them.
 

chris

Legend!
so i tried both presets.

there's a hollow sound to both, which i can't figure out. but i basically reset the dirty amps and it already sounded better. that could be Firmware 5.xx issue. but resetting the channel made it sound "better" to me. then i just reduced bass and adjusted treble as needed and i got a pretty usable tone, for a quick tweak.

i couldn't turn up, so i can't judge if it creates feedback. i'll try to do that tomorrow.

what firmware are you currently using these presets with @RamboMadCow ?

if for some reason they do sound "hollow" on the correct firmware, then try resetting and dialing in again? hard to say. here's what the Diezel preset sounded with the Recto amp reset and slightly adjusted. is this at all close to what you hear or what you want to hear?:

 

Shenks

Experienced
For my first show, I thought it was the FRFR cabinets making this squeal, so I turned output 1 to 0. I ended up having no stage volume, but the PA was find since it gets it's feed from output2. Even with output 1 off, I was sending feedback over the PA. So it doesn't seem to be the FRFR cabinets

Not that I've got an Axe FX III (yet!) but it applies to all FRFR applications and hence by extension to PA systems in varying degrees, so could this feedback be described as tweeter squeal? I'd look at is being a possibility since I had exactly the same issue at a motorbike rally last year - I had to get the sound engineer to kill the audio on the wedge monitor at my feet since it appears there was insufficient magnetic shielding.
 

666was999

Fractal Fanatic
Lowering gain reduces the fatness and fullness so you don't like to turn down gain. But when you add the fullness with an EQ instead, you might still like it with lowered gain? I'd boost something around 200-300 Hz post amp.
 

JamHawkLexTrip

New Member
Haven't been at my Axe in the last couple days so I couldn't try your preset yet, but I have always gone back to Mikko's tutorial for dialing in the IIc++ for the Metallica tone. These settings have ported over well with the axe3, just change the 5 band graphic to taste depending on your guitar and how modern or old school you want that scooped sound. For me, I bump up the 750 and bring down the 6.6k a bit. I have tested this with my CLR's and my 2x15 JBL's all going and I haven't ran into the FRFR squeal with this particular model even really saturated. I think this is the model blended with the diezel for their current live tone. If you don't have this cab pack, I am sure there is a comparable ML IR that is included stock on the 3.

 

RamboMadCow

Inspired
Goodness! I didn't realize there were so many replies. I suddenly stopped receiving email notifications and assumed the conversation wasn't going anywhere. I appreciate everyone for chiming and taking a look at my preset. I'm definitely going to be looking into all of the options provided.

First @Shenks I had initially thought it was an FRFR cabinet problem. I designed my Axe to run output 1 to a power amp and to my FRFR cabs and Output 2 goes to the bands splitter which is a direct feed to house PA. For that show, I literally turned the volume down to nearly inaudible on stage and that produced no improvement.

Several of you guys have given me good tips and tutorials that I'm going to work through...in 2 weeks after my next show. I don't want to risk changing too much....

EXCEPT the pickups apparently. I don't know if there's a problem with my EMG Het set (2 of them at that!) or if they're just insanely hot. Last night I brought over a guitar with a set of EMG 81/85 pickups, and I was able to quite literally double my volume with 0 feedback. I started with my Het set guitar, increased volume until I got feedback, and then swapped guitars. 0 feedback. Then I kept increasing volume until it was unbearably loud...still 0 feedback unless I had my guitar less than a foot away from my FRFR cabinet.

So...there's definitely something going on there unfortunately.

@chris Thank you for taking the time to look into my preset. It never sounded hollow to me when I ran it through my FRFR and my IEM, but I'm also used to a very scooped Metallica sound. Maybe the hollowness was a lack of mids. I won't be able to really a/b the difference for a few weeks as the Axe has moved from it's 3u rack for easy transportation, into my full 16u show rack. Hopefully I'll remember after the show to come back through here after significant testing and update you guys.

You guys rock! Thanks for your time everyone!
 

ScotHessler

Inspired
EXCEPT the pickups apparently. I don't know if there's a problem with my EMG Het set (2 of them at that!) or if they're just insanely hot. Last night I brought over a guitar with a set of EMG 81/85 pickups, and I was able to quite literally double my volume with 0 feedback. I started with my Het set guitar, increased volume until I got feedback, and then swapped guitars. 0 feedback. Then I kept increasing volume until it was unbearably loud...still 0 feedback unless I had my guitar less than a foot away from my FRFR cabinet.

There are some ridiculously hot pickups out there, and EMG makes a fair number of them. I picked up some X series EMG's because they were supposed to less compressed, and they are so ridiculously hot it makes me laugh.
 

Matt_B_77

Power User
I've found that with the Axe FX I don't need high output pickups to get the gain I want because I have so many tools to boost my signal and tweak the EQ. It's just easier for to use PAF pickups and let the Axe FX do the heavy lifting.
 

Rawad A Massih

New Member
@RamboMadCow
I hope someone here is till on this thread after 2.5 years. If not ill post my own thread.
I have this problem with my Fm9. Usually with my Mesa Mk2C+ if i put the gain knob at 5 O'clock i would get enough sustain for nice solos. In the digital world (that im brand new to) i noticed that I have to put much more overdrive , drive and preboost on the USA2C+ to get the real sustain (without noise gate).

And because of that gain im having feedback.

My master vol is pretty low 1.6
My Output 1 Level is -12, when i play the loudest sound i reach -1 on the Output meter. My drive is 8. My overdrive is 10 and my pre boost (neutral) is 8. And my eq-ing have very avarage numbers. Nothing extreme.

I think these numbers are pretty reasonable. I dont think the problem is from the Frfr speakers nor the pickups (mine are passive), it shouldnt be like this. And i think the solution is on the Fm9 itself.

If anyone knows what it is ill be grateful.
Many thanks
 

My name is mud

Fractal Fanatic
Input Noise gate

But not like set Metallica 😅 . Since they have the 3 in the end of nothing else matters etc they don’t have anymore sustain it’s funny everytime . He does the ending bend and “pouic” 🤣

Slayer don’t have more gain than Metallica . It’s just a simple boosted Marshall sound
 
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