Hi-hat - sound replacement vs pads? Advice needed.

Pelikanen

Inspired
Does anyone have any experience sound replacing recorded hi-hats? Or do you reckon it's better to capture MIDI data using pads? I guess it comes down to the feel when recording, as real hats feel better to play, but is it worth while?

It appears to be common knowledge that sound replacing a hi-hat is difficult. There has come software with specialized functions to do it, such as Drumagog 5 Platinum and the Drumtracker in Toontrack's Superior Drummer 3. There's also others, like Slate Trigger, Massey DRT etc. But how well do they work and do you think they're worth the money?

I ask because I'm about to record an EP with my band. We're thinking of capturing the timing/velocity data of the kit using MIDI, as MIDI would seem to allow for better control. So we're going for triggers on the drums and pads for the cymbals, and then there's the big question mark - the hi-hat.
 
I've had this conundrum for a while myself. Wanting the control of MIDI in case something needs tweaked ...but wanting to get a real feel on the hat.

What I found:
1. Real Hats are very easy to record. Especially if the rest of the kit is relatively silent (MIDI)
2. Its way quicker to fix a part or take while recording..than it is to dick with the piano roll later on.

The last recordings I did with my band, we did some of both...and both ways worked fine... I think we ended up using a real hat in the tunes where the part really needed the feel and many degrees of 'sloshiness' ...
 
It's really dependent on the part played.

A shuffle or swing jazz tune with lots of pedal on the hats will be dayum near impossible to use drum replacement or midi cymbals to re-create. Much easier to record the part in ISO.

A simple hat part with mostly fixed pedal positions is not too bad. I prefer drum replacement vs. pads. I use an iRig Pro midi keyboard to enter some parts too.
 
Which seems odd to say on an AxeFX forum.
Really? I can buy Sabien hats for about $100. To buy even half the stuff in an AX8 would be 100's of thousands of dollars. It is a matter of perspective. Software emulating hats is pretty lame. FAS emulating guitar gear is pretty amazing. There are a lot of very smart and discriminating players here. Smart enough to know the difference between a $100 investment and selling their house to buy gear.
 
It also depends how much hi-hat is in your overhead mics, what the hats sound like, what replacement sound you are dropping in versus what the original hats sound like and how they were played.

This can be a nightmare to do successfully.
 
Good natured rant incoming.
Dear god enough with the robot drummer thing. Use a real drummer, in a real room, with real drums and real mics. Anything else is being a fake pansy. If you can’t pull that off, maybe you shouldn’t be or aren’t ready to record your music.
 
Good natured rant incoming.
Dear god enough with the robot drummer thing. Use a real drummer, in a real room, with real drums and real mics. Anything else is being a fake pansy. If you can’t pull that off, maybe you shouldn’t be or aren’t ready to record your music.
Do you have any idea how much current music does this? Even the best drummers on the planet get sound replacement or at least "enhanced" via layering the replacement on the original... It's a pretty common production technique.

Also, many people don't have the money to pay for a good room or a pro studio... You shouldn't judge someone's ability to produce good music based on their ability to afford doing so.
 
It also depends how much hi-hat is in your overhead mics, what the hats sound like, what replacement sound you are dropping in versus what the original hats sound like and how they were played.

This can be a nightmare to do successfully.

Hi-hat bleed when doing replacement is indeed a kill joy.
 
Good natured rant incoming.
Dear god enough with the robot drummer thing. Use a real drummer, in a real room, with real drums and real mics. Anything else is being a fake pansy. If you can’t pull that off, maybe you shouldn’t be or aren’t ready to record your music.
Good natured reply incoming.
Dear god enough with the superior-than-thou insults. Use real common courtesy, with a real grasp of the real world and the real people in it. Anything else is being a condescending asshole. If you can't pull that off, maybe you shouldn't be or aren't ready to reply in forums.
 
Dear god enough with the robot drummer thing. Use a real drummer, in a real room, with real drums and real mics. Anything else is being a fake pansy.

I know huh. I hate having total control over timing and velocity of a $6,000.00 kit and professional drum samples using $100,000.00 worth of mics in a multi-million dollar studio... and that pesky 11:1 surround arrrrrgh.
 
Drum machines. You guys are looking for drum machines. No music when you take the souls out of it, but go ahead, make more stale music that sounds just like everything else out there.
 
Which seems odd to say on an AxeFX forum.
Your guitar is still the real thing, right? That's what this should be compared with.

To the topic, especially hihat and cymbals always sound way better if played by a (good) drummer. But it also depends on the musical style. If you play some brutal metal, midi drums might even sound better, but if there are silent moments where the drum has the opportunity to shine, midi kills it all.

However, what COULD work is to mix both worlds. Give it a try!
 
IMHO a misconception is to assume sampled drum sounds = drum machines. I use stock drum loops to establish a guide track then send the project to an awesome 'human' drummer that uses an electronic kit to lay down MIDI tracks to replace the guide track. It gives the capability of adjustment and modification without sacrificing the 'human' element. We found it hard to rival the tone, quality and consistency of professional drum samples not to mention the hassle of tweaking and mic'ing in the studio. The samples were recorded with real drums, many (vintage for ex.) that we could have no access to using 'real' mic lockers we could never afford in 'real' studio.

These methods allow project communication with an awesome drummer that is 500 miles away basically with dropbox. It isn't about one method being better than another method it's about an arsenal of tools. All that said hi-hat seems to be the most challenging. For us more so the mechanics than the tone.
 
Good natured rant incoming.
Dear god enough with the robot drummer thing. Use a real drummer, in a real room, with real drums and real mics. Anything else is being a fake pansy. If you can’t pull that off, maybe you shouldn’t be or aren’t ready to record your music.

This response + this forum = irony
 
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