Hex guitar processing - any experience with multiple Fractals or Eventide H8000/H9000?

[hippietim]

I've been really getting into hex pickup stuff again - currently I'm using a couple guitars with Roland GK pickups and the Boss SY-1000. I'd like to go deeper with individual string processing. I was wondering if anyone else has done any experimentation with multiple Axe-Fx processors or something like an Eventide H8000/H9000?

I'm leaning towards tracking down a couple more Axe-Fx's - the Eventide stuff is always complicated - but I wanted to see what others might have tried.

 

[bradlake]

I've just started dabbling in this area, so far mostly routing the individual SY 1000 strings via USB thru the Loopback App..( If you are not a Mac User , which I recall may be the case, Tim, I dunno the Win equivalent), into their own Virtual Channels in the UAD Console, which can then be used in any DAW , which is great for apps like the new UAD Luna, which doesn't yet do USB Audio well yet.
I haven't yet messed much with using this setup with external hardware, but I plan to try...

 

[hippietim]

I was planning on experimenting with Helix Native when I get a bit of time. I've got a GK breakout box and a Spicetone 6appeal to split a 13-pin signal into 6 audio signals. From there, I've got a Behringer ADA8000 or a Presonus Digimax FS that can be used as A/D inputs via ADAT into on of my RME interfaces (Babyface for the laptop or Fireface for desktop). So I should be able to have 6 audio channels each with their own instance of Helix Native.

But, I'd rather have 6 channels of Fractal Audio

 

[Larry Kehl]

You both seem to have/use SY-1000? So a dumb question - can the SY-1000 assign separate patches to EACH string and can it do string splits (e.g., at Fret 7 on low E string use a separate instrument/patch)? Just wondering.

I've done a quick read through of the Owners manual, the Tone Studio manual and MIDI Implementation manual. Even though the MIDI Implementation shows each string can be individually addressed for level, pan, and tuning it looks like each string can only be assigned into one of three SY-1000 instruments (I assume instrument here is same as "patch").

I cannot see in the Owners manual or Studio manual, and I may have missed it, being old, senile, and going blind, where the strings can be assigned to those "instruments" (patches) and I definitely don't see any mention of string-fret splits, or even how you set MIDI MONO or POLY (six individual MIDI channels for each string or all on one MIDI channel) mode?

I use an original GR-55 (old but one owner, me) and a GI-20 (not as old but still - LOL) at least with those units strings are assignable individually and to separate MIDI channels (mono mode). Although, yes you cannot do string-fret splits, at least without some effort on my part with a DAW and editing each channel - much easier with Fishman Triple Play.

 

[hippietim]

You both seem to have/use SY-1000? So a dumb question - can the SY-1000 assign separate patches to EACH string and can it do string splits (e.g., at Fret 7 on low E string use a separate instrument/patch)? Just wondering.

I've done a quick read through of the Owners manual, the Tone Studio manual and MIDI Implementation manual. Even though the MIDI Implementation shows each string can be individually addressed for level, pan, and tuning it looks like each string can only be assigned into one of three SY-1000 instruments (I assume instrument here is same as "patch").

I cannot see in the Owners manual or Studio manual, and I may have missed it, being old, senile, and going blind, where the strings can be assigned to those "instruments" (patches) and I definitely don't see any mention of string-fret splits, or even how you set MIDI MONO or POLY (six individual MIDI channels for each string or all on one MIDI channel) mode?

I use an original GR-55 (old but one owner, me) and a GI-20 (not as old but still - LOL) at least with those units strings are assignable individually and to separate MIDI channels (mono mode). Although, yes you cannot do string-fret splits, at least without some effort on my part with a DAW and editing each channel - much easier with Fishman Triple Play.

You can't do separate patches per string. You have 3 instrument blocks for the GK inputs per patch - you can control which strings are processed in each block by adjusting the level. There's no string splitting.

For pitch-to-MIDI, you can do both MONO and POLY mode on a per-patch basis. You set the base MIDI channel globally though.

 

[Larry Kehl]

hippietim, thanks for info

 

[RoshRoslin]

I've worked with Thomas Nordegg on his Sonica system and used the hex Pickup in that regard. Really incredible to have a wide variety of sounds going to different units including the AxeFX.

 

[Dr. Dipwad]

@hippietim:
I've used a pair of AxeFX II's together, and it worked pretty well.

(NOTE: The following has nothing to do with hex pickups. But I tie it back to that, at the very end.)

My goal was to achieve -- and people who've read my WISH posts before now know what's coming next and, after giving a small groan, can probably say it with me -- crossfading channel-switching, especially between different amp sounds. (Yes, of all the dead horses I'm prone to beat, that's my favorite.)

Basically I like to run one-preset-per-song, and use Scene Changes to switch from the Verse Sound to the Chorus Sound, or from the Chorus Sound to the Lead Sound. And this generally adds up to 4-5 separate scenes per song...but, importantly, no more than 3-4 different Drive>Amp>Cab combinations.

And, when I change from one Scene to the next, I like for the starting-sound to smoothly morph to the destination-sound, by crossfading from one to the other. I hate the tiny bit of silence that happens during a conventional channel-change on a block. (Admittedly it's much better on the III than the II.) But, even more than that, I hate the abruptness of the change, especially when it happens in the middle of a note. If you think about it, even a zero-millisecond gap would still sound abrupt when the timbres are quite different!)

Avoiding that abruptness is pretty easy, if you're changing from (say) a very wet Chorus to a dry, no-Chorus sound. You just run the Chorus in parallel with another block, set the output volumes at 100% and 0% for Scene 1, but 0% and 100% for Scene 2, and put a 1000ms Damping time on each. When you hit your footswitch for the scene change, the Chorus just gradually crossfades to a no-Chorus sound, instead of abruptly cutting off.

If you want 4 separate sounds (say, Chorus, Echo, Pitch-Shifter, and dry), it starts to increase your CPU and is trickier to program. But it's still doable.

But -- here's why I got a second AxeFX II and incorporated it into the rig -- if you want 3 or 4 different AMP tones, it just can't be done. You can't have 3 or 4 different Amp blocks running simultaneously in a single AxeFX II.

I got around this by incorporating the second AxeFX II into the loop of the first, and using panning to send the output of one Drive/Amp/Cab signal-chain to the Right side, and another Drive/Amp/Cab signal chain to the Left side. This came back into the first AxeFX, where the separate Right and Left FX returns were sent in parallel with the Drive/Amp/Cab signal-chains in that unit.

The result was 4 simultaneous Drive/Amp/Cab chains, amongst which I could crossfade with Scene-change buttons.

It worked well and was oh-so-smooth on Scene changes: Nothing abrupt detectable even if I were playing alone (let alone in a mix).

But, I gotta admit: The programming hassle was tremendous.

The main downside came from having to maintain two different presets (one on each AxeFX), each with the same name and preset number, just in order to make the sounds for each song. Every time I wanted to make a change, I had to ask myself, "Okay, given how I've arranged the signal chain, which AxeFX do I need to edit?" And of course making backups was twice the hassle. If either unit had failed, all my song-presets would be non-functional, so there was a "weakest link breaks the whole chain" risk-factor. Finally, with only one computer, I couldn't use Axe-Edit simultaneously on both halves of the chain: I'd have to power down, unplug the MIDI cable connecting the two units, plug in the USB, power up, do half the work, power down again, switch the USB to the second unit, power up again, do the second half of the work...aaaarrgh! In the end it was easier to just edit from the front panel.

With the AxeFX III, I'm contemplating using outboard Amp/Cab stuff (e.g. the Le Clean/Crunch/Lead and Torpedo from TwoNotes) so that I can keep the whole Fractal part of the chain in one unit. (Not to mention reducing the costs. But I'm slightly concerned about D/A, A/D conversion causing latency that wouldn't be there if it all stayed in the digital realm. We'll see.)

ANYHOW, my thought is: If you use multiple units to handle the multiple outputs coming from a hex pickup, chances are you'll run into similar hassles. It might be a cool result, all the same; but: Be Ye Forewarned.

 

[hippietim]

Look out...

 

[deakle]

Look out...

View attachment 68181

Hi @hippietim! I am in the process of installing a GK-3 on a PRS SE Custom 24. I was wondering how well the Boss SY 1000 plays with the Axe FX III. What sorts of things can you accomplish with it? I would like to add some synth orchestral type strings or maybe an acoustic 12 string to what I play through the Axe III, perhaps using a looper? Just curious as to how your experimenting has been going?

 

[hippietim]

Hi @hippietim! I am in the process of installing a GK-3 on a PRS SE Custom 24. I was wondering how well the Boss SY 1000 plays with the Axe FX III. What sorts of things can you accomplish with it? I would like to add some synth orchestral type strings or maybe an acoustic 12 string to what I play through the Axe III, perhaps using a looper? Just curious as to how your experimenting has been going?

Well, before covid happened I was using the FM3 with the SY1000. The experience will really be similar to using the SY1000 with the Axe-Fx III. Here's some ways you could use it assuming you have the regular guitar input going into the SY1000 and the output of the SY1000 going to input 2 on your Fractal and input 1 on your Fractal is your normal magnetic pickup output.

1. In 1 Mag guitar processing all done in the Fractal, hex delivering synth tones to In 2 on the Fractal - you can merge that signal into the chain anywhere you want so they can share some effects or just have In 2 go straight to Out 1.
2. Same as #1, but you're generating acoustic or electric guitar modeled tones with the SY1000
3. Same as #1, but you're just processing the magnetic pickup path using the amp models on the SY1000 - this gives you dual amps with the FM3 or triple amps with the Axe-Fx III
4. Combinations of 1, 2, 3
5. Don't use In 1 on the Fractal, use only guitar modeling on the SY1000 and do amp modeling with the Fractal
6. etc.

For my usage, I was doing some virtual guitars (12-string and alternate tunings) with the SY1000 and amp modeling in the FM3. And I was doing synth stuff from the SY1000 with or without normal guitar through the FM3.

 

[hippietim]

Just to follow up on the original question I posed, I recently bought an H9000R to use for hex guitar processing. I've got a guitar equipped with a Cycfi hex pickup along with their Nexus breakout box. I had chatted with a friend working with an H9000 with the same hex system I'm using and he said he never used the front panel - he only uses the Emote software. So I decided to save $2k and get the R version.

The best way to summarize the H9000R is frustrating. The first thing you have to do to use Emote is connect to the H9000R over your ethernet network. I didn't realize it didn't support USB - I made the mistake of assuming that because it has a USB B port you could edit via this connection. This is really painful. I don't have ethernet cabling everywhere - wireless is plenty fast enough. I followed the steps to connect with my Windows laptop that I use for editing all of my music gear as well as some recording. It never connected over my wifi network - I was only able to connect to it's Wifi host and go through the setup steps. I ended up running an ethernet cable across the room to just get something happening. At this point it's worth noting one important thing that is required - patience. Power-cycling the H9000 takes minutes (confirmed by my friend as well). But since there's no front panel display with the H9000R you have no idea what is going on - is it hung? When is it done rebooting? Finally, I could make some sound! Right? Nope. Attempting to edit a session immediately crashes Emote.

So I hit the forum for help. While searching for reasons Emote would crash, I saw a post that says you need to have Apple's Bonjour for Windows installed for Wifi to work. I abandoned the search for crashes just to see if I could connect via Wifi with Bonjour installed. No help. I connected to my Wifi router to get the H9000R ip address. I was able to connect via Wifi with the IP address. Then it was back to crashes. I updated the H9000R firmware. Now Emote wouldn't connect because it didn't support the firmware that was installed. I had the latest Emote software installed. How could the latest version of H9000R and Emote software not be compatible?

I pulled out my Macbook Pro Retina and tried. Same thing - no connection. The forum had some public beta firmware with corresponding Emote software. They connected. I was able to actually edit a session. Until the Emote software lost the connection. After reconnecting things seemed ok for a while. Then Emote crashed. After a few more attempts I was able to get in a solid lengthy session experimenting with the H9000R.

Obviously, the H9000R sounded excellent. But the navigating the Emote software is so cumbersome. Constant back and forth between the different views. There's no fast way to audition a bunch of chorus's - you have to manually drag and drop. The best you can filter to is "modulation". That's a lot of items. The names were seldom intuitive - you just have to try them all. Then there's the algorithms that are really effects chains. Wading through all of this takes a lot of time or searching through the algorithm document hoping to stumble on what you want.

Hex guitar processing is doable of course but surprisingly the H9000R is very limited here. You have four effects chains and each chain can have four algorithms. So if you wanted to have filters on all six strings you'd chew up 3-4 of your 16 effects in order to have as many separate effects paths per string. This is a shame because there is an 8 channel filter algorithm. In fact, there's a bunch of 4 and 8 channel algorithms. But due to the limited routing in the H9000, you can't take advantage of using multiple effect chains. IOW, I wanted to route effects chain 1 into effects chain 2. But you can't do that. Effects chains can only go out to a physical output and there inputs are only from physical inputs. Furthermore, you can't route two effects chains to the same outputs but you can use the same inputs for multiple effects chains. So you can't even use the 4 effects chains from different inputs and have them all come out a single stereo output. I didn't notice these routing limitations when I perused the manual before I bought it - it would have saved me some trouble.

After using Fractal products for over a decade with a a routing matrix that is very flexible I kind of had an idea that the H9000R would have similar internal routing capabilities. Particularly since the 4 chains of 4 effects pretty much forces you down the path of needing internal routing or using more external IO to achieve that. I guess Eventide didn't want to have to worry about an arbitrary number of blocks at a time and dealing with dynamic CPU allocation.

My friend told me that I could do more routing like I wanted if I got a Dante expansion card. I really didn't want to spend another $1000 so I sent the H9000R back. Someone on TGP mentioned being able to use an optical cable from out to in as a loopback.

Because it does sound very good, I would definitely revisit the H9000R down the road if Eventide addresses the routing limitations and improves the reliability and usability of the Emote software. Also, how about supporting USB for connecting to Emote like most other musical processors out there.

 

[deakle]

Well, before covid happened I was using the FM3 with the SY1000. The experience will really be similar to using the SY1000 with the Axe-Fx III. Here's some ways you could use it assuming you have the regular guitar input going into the SY1000 and the output of the SY1000 going to input 2 on your Fractal and input 1 on your Fractal is your normal magnetic pickup output.

1. In 1 Mag guitar processing all done in the Fractal, hex delivering synth tones to In 2 on the Fractal - you can merge that signal into the chain anywhere you want so they can share some effects or just have In 2 go straight to Out 1.
2. Same as #1, but you're generating acoustic or electric guitar modeled tones with the SY1000
3. Same as #1, but you're just processing the magnetic pickup path using the amp models on the SY1000 - this gives you dual amps with the FM3 or triple amps with the Axe-Fx III
4. Combinations of 1, 2, 3
5. Don't use In 1 on the Fractal, use only guitar modeling on the SY1000 and do amp modeling with the Fractal
6. etc.

For my usage, I was doing some virtual guitars (12-string and alternate tunings) with the SY1000 and amp modeling in the FM3. And I was doing synth stuff from the SY1000 with or without normal guitar through the FM3.

Wow! I am excited now! Thank you @hippietim!

 

[steadystate]

Hippietim's post reminded me of my love/hate relationship with Eventide.

 

[Piing]

Just to follow up on the original question I posed, I recently bought an H9000R to use for hex guitar processing. I've got a guitar equipped with a Cycfi hex pickup along with their Nexus breakout box. I had chatted with a friend working with an H9000 with the same hex system I'm using and he said he never used the front panel - he only uses the Emote software. So I decided to save $2k and get the R version.

The best way to summarize the H9000R is frustrating. The first thing you have to do to use Emote is connect to the H9000R over your ethernet network. I didn't realize it didn't support USB - I made the mistake of assuming that because it has a USB B port you could edit via this connection. This is really painful. I don't have ethernet cabling everywhere - wireless is plenty fast enough. I followed the steps to connect with my Windows laptop that I use for editing all of my music gear as well as some recording. It never connected over my wifi network - I was only able to connect to it's Wifi host and go through the setup steps. I ended up running an ethernet cable across the room to just get something happening. At this point it's worth noting one important thing that is required - patience. Power-cycling the H9000 takes minutes (confirmed by my friend as well). But since there's no front panel display with the H9000R you have no idea what is going on - is it hung? When is it done rebooting? Finally, I could make some sound! Right? Nope. Attempting to edit a session immediately crashes Emote.

So I hit the forum for help. While searching for reasons Emote would crash, I saw a post that says you need to have Apple's Bonjour for Windows installed for Wifi to work. I abandoned the search for crashes just to see if I could connect via Wifi with Bonjour installed. No help. I connected to my Wifi router to get the H9000R ip address. I was able to connect via Wifi with the IP address. Then it was back to crashes. I updated the H9000R firmware. Now Emote wouldn't connect because it didn't support the firmware that was installed. I had the latest Emote software installed. How could the latest version of H9000R and Emote software not be compatible?

I pulled out my Macbook Pro Retina and tried. Same thing - no connection. The forum had some public beta firmware with corresponding Emote software. They connected. I was able to actually edit a session. Until the Emote software lost the connection. After reconnecting things seemed ok for a while. Then Emote crashed. After a few more attempts I was able to get in a solid lengthy session experimenting with the H9000R.

Obviously, the H9000R sounded excellent. But the navigating the Emote software is so cumbersome. Constant back and forth between the different views. There's no fast way to audition a bunch of chorus's - you have to manually drag and drop. The best you can filter to is "modulation". That's a lot of items. The names were seldom intuitive - you just have to try them all. Then there's the algorithms that are really effects chains. Wading through all of this takes a lot of time or searching through the algorithm document hoping to stumble on what you want.

Hex guitar processing is doable of course but surprisingly the H9000R is very limited here. You have four effects chains and each chain can have four algorithms. So if you wanted to have filters on all six strings you'd chew up 3-4 of your 16 effects in order to have as many separate effects paths per string. This is a shame because there is an 8 channel filter algorithm. In fact, there's a bunch of 4 and 8 channel algorithms. But due to the limited routing in the H9000, you can't take advantage of using multiple effect chains. IOW, I wanted to route effects chain 1 into effects chain 2. But you can't do that. Effects chains can only go out to a physical output and there inputs are only from physical inputs. Furthermore, you can't route two effects chains to the same outputs but you can use the same inputs for multiple effects chains. So you can't even use the 4 effects chains from different inputs and have them all come out a single stereo output. I didn't notice these routing limitations when I perused the manual before I bought it - it would have saved me some trouble.

After using Fractal products for over a decade with a a routing matrix that is very flexible I kind of had an idea that the H9000R would have similar internal routing capabilities. Particularly since the 4 chains of 4 effects pretty much forces you down the path of needing internal routing or using more external IO to achieve that. I guess Eventide didn't want to have to worry about an arbitrary number of blocks at a time and dealing with dynamic CPU allocation.

My friend told me that I could do more routing like I wanted if I got a Dante expansion card. I really didn't want to spend another $1000 so I sent the H9000R back. Someone on TGP mentioned being able to use an optical cable from out to in as a loopback.

Because it does sound very good, I would definitely revisit the H9000R down the road if Eventide addresses the routing limitations and improves the reliability and usability of the Emote software. Also, how about supporting USB for connecting to Emote like most other musical processors out there.

I had the H3000 and the Eclipse and they were a PITA. I imagine that the H9000R can be a PITA on steroids.

That's why I wish to have 6 instances of certain blocks at the Axe-FX III:
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...h-and-other-blocks-for-hex-processing.163063/

 

[steadystate]

I had the H3000 and the Eclipse and they were a PITA. I imagine that the H9000R can be a PITA on steroids.

The H3000 and Eclipse were the easy ones, with pre-defined algorithms. I had the H3000, the GTR4000, the DSP7000 and the Orville. I loved being able to use as many instances of any resource the DSP/memory would allow, but it came at a very heavy price.

The load times were insanely long; up to five seconds.

The editing program (VSIG), while ok for the time, was cumbersome and quirky.

While the units came with hundreds (if not thousands) of presets, none were exactly what I needed. And creating them was a major PITA. Example, if I needed a basic dual chorus, I'd need to insert two modulatable delay blocks (one for each output side), an lfo block, connect the lfo to the mod inputs of the delays through an inverter on the left delay to make the lfo 180 degrees out of phase with the right delay, insert an inverter set to non-invert on the right delay mod input to compensate for the delay of the invert block on the left delay mod input, insert userobject blocks to map whatever parameters I wanted to see on the front panel display, name the parameters, set the resolution with which the parameters would be adjusted when the knob is turned, insert external control blocks if I wanted MIDI cc control, then spend forever with trial and error scaling to get them to behave the way I wanted them to.

You could get exactly what you wanted with superb quality, but I'm not as young as I was then, and I don't have the time or patience to deal with it. Even with the H9000's new software, the process is more complicated than it's worth to me.

HAVING SAID THAT: The one unit I thought was a perfect balance was the Digitech TSR-24S. It also allowed the user to add as many instances of any block as desired until the resources were full. The blocks were self-contained like the Axe, and the load times were fast (even seamless if the analog direct path was active). It also allowed unlimited local CC assignments, simultaneously with 20 global. Had the unit had a PC editor, I think it would have been more popular, as programming it with the tiny LCD and pencil/paper was not ideal. It also used proprietary DSP chips and used lower quality algorithms. But I absolutely loved the design concept.

All in all, I'm quite happy with the Axe FX. I rarely need another instance of a block. I do wish it had a time align block to save instances of other blocks needed for that purpose though.

 

[unix-guy]

While the units came with hundreds (if not thousands) of presets, none were exactly what I needed. And creating them was a major PITA. Example, if I needed a basic dual chorus, I'd need to insert two modulatable delay blocks (one for each output side), an lfo block, connect the lfo to the mod inputs of the delays through an inverter on the left delay to make the lfo 180 degrees out of phase with the right delay, insert an inverter set to non-invert on the right delay mod input to compensate for the delay of the invert block on the left delay mod input, insert userobject blocks to map whatever parameters I wanted to see on the front panel display, name the parameters, set the resolution with which the parameters would be adjusted when the knob is turned, insert external control blocks if I wanted MIDI cc control, then spend forever with trial and error scaling to get them to behave the way I wanted them to.

Never buy an Empress Zoia, then!

Imagine doing all that but only by pressing numerous soft buttons and rotating a knob.

The capability to do a lot was there, but I just didn't have the time to spend with programming it so I sold it. A nice editor would have made it a great tool for me.

 

[deakle]

Well, before covid happened I was using the FM3 with the SY1000. The experience will really be similar to using the SY1000 with the Axe-Fx III. Here's some ways you could use it assuming you have the regular guitar input going into the SY1000 and the output of the SY1000 going to input 2 on your Fractal and input 1 on your Fractal is your normal magnetic pickup output.

1. In 1 Mag guitar processing all done in the Fractal, hex delivering synth tones to In 2 on the Fractal - you can merge that signal into the chain anywhere you want so they can share some effects or just have In 2 go straight to Out 1.
2. Same as #1, but you're generating acoustic or electric guitar modeled tones with the SY1000
3. Same as #1, but you're just processing the magnetic pickup path using the amp models on the SY1000 - this gives you dual amps with the FM3 or triple amps with the Axe-Fx III
4. Combinations of 1, 2, 3
5. Don't use In 1 on the Fractal, use only guitar modeling on the SY1000 and do amp modeling with the Fractal
6. etc.

For my usage, I was doing some virtual guitars (12-string and alternate tunings) with the SY1000 and amp modeling in the FM3. And I was doing synth stuff from the SY1000 with or without normal guitar through the FM3.

Also,

Well, before covid happened I was using the FM3 with the SY1000. The experience will really be similar to using the SY1000 with the Axe-Fx III. Here's some ways you could use it assuming you have the regular guitar input going into the SY1000 and the output of the SY1000 going to input 2 on your Fractal and input 1 on your Fractal is your normal magnetic pickup output.

1. In 1 Mag guitar processing all done in the Fractal, hex delivering synth tones to In 2 on the Fractal - you can merge that signal into the chain anywhere you want so they can share some effects or just have In 2 go straight to Out 1.
2. Same as #1, but you're generating acoustic or electric guitar modeled tones with the SY1000
3. Same as #1, but you're just processing the magnetic pickup path using the amp models on the SY1000 - this gives you dual amps with the FM3 or triple amps with the Axe-Fx III
4. Combinations of 1, 2, 3
5. Don't use In 1 on the Fractal, use only guitar modeling on the SY1000 and do amp modeling with the Fractal
6. etc.

For my usage, I was doing some virtual guitars (12-string and alternate tunings) with the SY1000 and amp modeling in the FM3. And I was doing synth stuff from the SY1000 with or without normal guitar through the FM3.

@hippietim may I ask what guitars you have the GK-3 pickup installed on?