Help with X/Y States

Hey all,

I'm working on my live tones, using scenes. I'm running two amps - amp 1 set for dirty, using X and Y states for varied gain levels. Amp 2 is a clean amp. I'm running into trouble using the X/Y states on AMP 2 - I've got the X state as set to mute for bypass mode, but when I click on Y, none of the parameters affect the sound/volume etc. It seems to be stuck on the settings of X.

Anybody ran into this before? Can I not run 2 amps with X/Y?

Thanks!

-K
 
Double check to make sure that amp 2 is engages and set to y. In the past when I am working with two amps using xy I start messing with an amp but forget to engage it so basically it is bypassed and no of the things I am doing effect the sound lol
 
Do you even need to use XY for amp 2? Why not set it they way you want in the X state & then bypass the amp 2 block in the scenes you want the dirty sounds.
 
Maybe someone has a better way. What I'm trying to accomplish is a gig ready patch to handle clean, slightly driven, dirty, and lead sounds. The only way I've been able to accomplish it has been to use Amp1 for dirty (x) and lead (y), and Amp2 as clean (x) and slightly driven (y) with a Rat in front.

Anybody have any wisdom?

-K
 
Yes, the better way, is to remain in your amp 1 x and attach a scene 1 controller to the drive knob, then use the scene percentage to get low, medium, high, and very high gain.

If the change in gain causes your volume to change in too drastic a manner, you can either attach the scene two modifier to the amp block's output and use percentages to manipulate the volume for each scene, or simply set the scene output by clicking the right most end of the grid blocks where it says "OUTPUT" vertically, and adjust the desired volume of each scene.
 
You can alter your sound in so many ways with modifiers attached to amp controls - you don't need to jump to another amp, unless you are going from two completely different timbres, but you'd be surprised and relieved to find that these amp models can usually go from clean to over the top, just with the basic controls that allow a modifier to be attached.
 
My approach to this has been to use two amp blocks (in the same preset), one set to clean and the other set to medium-light gain. I'll then use a single drive block, and use its X/Y state to add a heavier rhythm and lead gains. That gives me 4 "channels", one clean and three dirty. (More really, but I don't want to overly complicate what I'm describing next.) I like the idea of keeping my clean amp and dirty amp separate, and choosing the "perfect" clean and dirty amp models.

Now - It might sound complicated, the way I then switch between the two amps, but it's pretty straightforward once you get your head around it. It also leads to a very clean and fast switch between amps with no X/Y dropout. The amps are run in parallel. What you do is use a pair of volume blocks, one in front of each amp. A single IA switch controls the bypass state of VOL1 and VOL2 (by setting VOL2's bypass to the same CC number). You then set the volume of VOL1 block to '10' and VOL2 to '0', and you set the bypass type to 'mute' on VOL1, and 'through' on VOL2. When the blocks are 'on' VOL1 passes signal, VOL2 passes no signal ('0'). When the blocks are bypassed, VOL1 is mute, VOL2 is 'through'. I know, seems complicated, but it's not really. Essentially you're creating an A/B switch with the two VOL blocks.

One advantage is that you can now have two separate signal sub-chains with different blocks in those chains and switch between all of them instantly, by way of this "A/B switch". For example, you might put a compressor in front of your clean amp, or maybe a chorus block after it. Or maybe a different cab after each amp? You can then join the signal back up so they share the rest of your effects chain, or keep them separate all the way to the end of the grid. It allows you to push one button and go from clean to whatever dirt level you've set. It also plays very well with scenes, since that single IA switch can be controlled per-scene.

From the standpoint of the MFC-101, I have one switch that changes between my clean and dirty amp, one switch that's drive pedal on/off, and a third that controls X/Y of the drive block. I only use 4 gain levels, but it can actually give you 6 different combinations, if you put the drive block before the VOL blocks.

Personally I find this better than using scene controllers since it's easier to make global changes. If scenes 2,3,4 have drive 1 on in X state and I want to change the drive level I only have to change it in the drive block, not change the scene modifier for three scenes. In fact, I want it to change on all my presets, since I want a globally constant core guitar sound. The two amps I use and the drive block are global blocks because of my desire to have a consistent sound. I definitely use scene controllers for reverb and delay parameters, but not with gain settings.
 
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Yes, the better way, is to remain in your amp 1 x and attach a scene 1 controller to the drive knob, then use the scene percentage to get low, medium, high, and very high gain.

thanks for the tip!
I've been using X/Y states of the same amp with just different gain levels, but never really liked the short cut in sound during changeover.
 
A lot of interesting input here… I'm not used to using the Axe for anything beyond recording, so this is fairly new to me…. I'm curious about the scene controllers/modifiers as mentioned above -- anyone have something further I can dive into?

Again, thanks!

-K
 
Now - It might sound complicated, the way I then switch between the two amps, but it's pretty straightforward once you get your head around it. It also leads to a very clean and fast switch between amps with no X/Y dropout. The amps are run in parallel. What you do is use a pair of volume blocks, one in front of each amp. A single IA switch controls the bypass state of VOL1 and VOL2 (by setting VOL2's bypass to the same CC number). You then set the volume of VOL1 block to '10' and VOL2 to '0', and you set the bypass type to 'mute' on VOL1, and 'through' on VOL2. When the blocks are 'on' VOL1 passes signal, VOL2 passes no signal ('0'). When the blocks are bypassed, VOL1 is mute, VOL2 is 'through'. I know, seems complicated, but it's not really. Essentially you're creating an A/B switch with the two VOL blocks.
You don't need to use the VOL blocks to do this. Just set the Bypass behavior of each of the amps to Mute (if you're running the amps in parallel). Then you can control Amp1 Bypass and Amp2 Bypass by setting to the same CC# and reversing the values on one of them. Same result as what you described, but you don't need the VOL blocks. I use this as my standard setup for any patches w/ 2 amps, it works great with no dropouts.
 
You don't need to use the VOL blocks to do this. Just set the Bypass behavior of each of the amps to Mute (if you're running the amps in parallel). Then you can control Amp1 Bypass and Amp2 Bypass by setting to the same CC# and reversing the values on one of them. Same result as what you described, but you don't need the VOL blocks. I use this as my standard setup for any patches w/ 2 amps, it works great with no dropouts.

Hm. I tried that a while back and had some issues. Maybe something has changed with more recent firmware, or maybe I didn't try that exact set up. I should revisit that approach. It's simpler for sure.

So you have an IA set to Amp1 Bypass, then set Amp 2 bypass to the same CC (37). How do you reverse the value of Amp2 bypass? I want the IA to be set to Amp1 Bypass, not a midi CC, so that the IA state changes with scenes. If it's set to a generic CC it results in a unidirectional control only.
 
So you have an IA set to Amp1 Bypass, then set Amp 2 bypass to the same CC (37). How do you reverse the value of Amp2 bypass? I want the IA to be set to Amp1 Bypass, not a midi CC, so that the IA state changes with scenes. If it's set to a generic CC it results in a unidirectional control only.

a Scene sets the bypass state. no IA required.
 
a Scene sets the bypass state. no IA required.

Well, I was asking jefferski details on his method of amp switching with an IA. So, an IA is required ;-)

Chris, you post a ton of really useful and very appreciated info, videos, etc about using the Axe and MFC. I KNOW you know your sh*t! I've noticed though sometimes your responses to questions are to tell people they shouldn't do something a certain way. I think it's good (especially in art and music) to try things, to do things the "wrong" way, and to pursue non-conventional approaches. Different people have different requirements and ways they want to set up their rig. I have the utmost respect for the work you've put into your videos and other online resources, and I know your knowledge of the Axe Fx is quite deep, so I hope that comes across with no disrespect.
 
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Well, I was asking jefferski details on his method of amp switching with an IA. So, an IA is required ;-)\

didn't know you were asking him only. i was commenting with the original post and question in mind.

i definitely not saying "do it this way only." what i said is still true for XY and bypass/engage in general, as i thought that was the essence of this thread.

non-conventional is awesome, if you understand what's going on.


can't you use a External Controller as the modifier on the Bypass parameters of the 2 Amp blocks and reverse the Start and End values on one? similar to how i made a Volume and Wah block in the same preset controlled by the same Expression Pedal in my SP-1 video.
 
didn't know you were asking him only. i was commenting with the original post and question in mind.

i definitely not saying "do it this way only." what i said is still true for XY and bypass/engage in general, as i thought that was the essence of this thread.

non-conventional is awesome, if you understand what's going on.


can't you use a External Controller as the modifier on the Bypass parameters of the 2 Amp blocks and reverse the Start and End values on one? similar to how i made a Volume and Wah block in the same preset controlled by the same Expression Pedal in my SP-1 video.

Cool. I hear you.

Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly:
1) Set the IA to Amp1 Bypass
2) Set an external controller to CC37
3) Set Amp2 bypass to the external controller, and invert the start/end
4) Set the bypass states to Mute for each amp

That gives you a single IA to switch between Amp1/2, and that IA will change states as you move between scenes, right?

If you assign the IA as a generic CC, rather than "Amp1 Bypass" then it won't change states between scenes. (I use the toe switch in my Mission pedal to do the Volume/Wah "swap", as well, so I understand what you're talking about when using an external controller that way.) I don't have my Axe Fx in front of me, so I'm not sure if the steps I described would work or not. Mainly, I'm not sure if an Axe Fx external controller set to the same CC that way will really "see" the message when the IA is set to an Axe Fx function. I know that even when an IA is set to an Axe Fx function, the MFC is still sending the same midi CC message, so it seems possible to assign an external controller to CC37, assign that to Amp2 Bypass, and invert start/stop. I'll just have to try it out and see.


And my apologies for hijacking this thread beyond just X/Y stuff. At one point the OP said "Maybe someone has a better way" and described wanting the 4 gain levels, switchable on the fly during a gig, so I piped in since that's how I've done my setup. Rock on!
 
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I don't have my MFC set up right now so this is from memory... and I think I made a couple of mistakes/omissions in my explanation. I have the IA switch set to NONE mode. I should've clarified that, sorry. Then, I have the IA switch assigned to the two CC's for Amp 1 and Amp 2 Bypass, so rather than making the two CC#s the same I use both 37 & 38 (I think those are the #s). On one, I have the range as 0-127, and on the other, I reversed the range so it's 127-0.

Hope that helps. It works for me. You can certainly do this with scenes as well, and sometimes I still use scenes to switch amps... but I'm mostly running in stomp mode right now so I don't use scenes much.
 
I don't have my MFC set up right now so this is from memory... and I think I made a couple of mistakes/omissions in my explanation. I have the IA switch set to NONE mode. I should've clarified that, sorry. Then, I have the IA switch assigned to the two CC's for Amp 1 and Amp 2 Bypass, so rather than making the two CC#s the same I use both 37 & 38 (I think those are the #s). On one, I have the range as 0-127, and on the other, I reversed the range so it's 127-0.

Hope that helps. It works for me. You can certainly do this with scenes as well, and sometimes I still use scenes to switch amps... but I'm mostly running in stomp mode right now so I don't use scenes much.

Ah, okay. That makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.

I may try the method I described a few posts up, which is similar, but keeps the IA switch in Axe Mode. If it works I'll start a new thread describing how to do it on the chance that someone else ever wants to try it.

Thanks again.
 
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