Help with external switch

acidfrost

Inspired
I just received my FM3 and it is an amazing piece of hardware. I had an Axe-FX II for a while and the 2 are very different. Settings are much more complex than it used to be! haha

I'm having an issue with my external switch in my mission engineer SP-1. I have a momentary switch at the toe down to start the WAH in the FM3.
I attach it as a controller to the bypass function in the wah with the following settings:
Source: Pedal 2 (Exp/Sw Tip)
PC Reset: ON (as I want it to be off when I come back to this preset)
Update Rate Fast

In Setup - I/O - Pedal, I have Switch 2 as followed:
Switch 2 Tip Behavior: Virtual Toggle
Switch 2 Tip Polarity: Normally Closed/Momentary Break

I had different issue playing with all the settings but these seems to be the one that works as close as possible to what I need.
Now the issue I have is the first time I boot the FM-3, I have to press the switch twice to have the WAH engage. The following times it toggles properly.

Am I missing something?

Thanks
 
Are you sure your switch is Normally Closed? Most are Normally Open.
 
I'm not sure, but I tried to set it up both ways, closed or open and the same issue happen. Looking at the modifier graphic when I first open the FM3, The dot that shows where the modifier is isn't there.

It seems I have to press on it once so the FM3 knows it's state, then again for it to do something. On the Axe Fx 2 it was working fine.
 
Using "Virtual Toggle" on a physically latching switch has problems, as outlined in the manual on page 94:

Note that if you accidentally apply the Virtual Toggle setting to a physical latching switch, you'll need to tap the switch twice (or more) for it to toggle.

It's one thing that's bothered me about how Fractal handles external switches: There's no real reliable way to turn a physically latching switch into a toggle switch. Which means you almost never want "PC Reset" enabled when using a latching switch for bypass, because if you leave your Wah enabled on one preset, when you come back it's now bypassed and out of sync with the hardware, and you gotta hit the switch twice to get back in sync and turn it on.

It's probably going to be worth it to swap the latching switch out for a momentary in your exp pedal if you really need it to behave how you want.
 
I'm not sure, but I tried to set it up both ways, closed or open and the same issue happen. Looking at the modifier graphic when I first open the FM3, The dot that shows where the modifier is isn't there.

It seems I have to press on it once so the FM3 knows it's state, then again for it to do something. On the Axe Fx 2 it was working fine.
It sounds like you're starting out with the switch in the On state, but PC reset is forcing an Off state. So when you stomp it the first time, you're turning the switch off, which matches the current Off state. That's why nothing happens.

When you switch to Normally-Open, the exact same thing occurs?
 
It's one thing that's bothered me about how Fractal handles external switches: There's no real reliable way to turn a physically latching switch into a toggle switch.
A physically latching switch is already a toggle switch.
 
It sounds like you're starting out with the switch in the On state, but PC reset is forcing an Off state. So when you stomp it the first time, you're turning the switch off, which matches the current Off state. That's why nothing happens.

When you switch to Normally-Open, the exact same thing occurs?
Yes. The main issue I had was whenever I started the FM3, my wah would come ON even though the preset had it OFF saved. I turned PC reset ON and now I have this issue instead.
 
There should be a way to have the switch a simple toggle regardless of it's state. Similar to how the onboard switch work. But I don't want to waste a switch with a stand-in.
 
A physically latching switch is already a toggle switch.
Argh. I'm just typo-ing all over the place today. I meant something like a momentary switch that can toggle the current state of something regardless of the physical state of the switch.

Basically: The state of the switch changed (doesn't matter if it's open->closed or closed->open), so toggle the state of a controller, regardless of its current state.

For example, consider a preset with "PC Reset" enabled for the Wah's Bypass controller, set up so that the Wah always starts out bypassed when selecting that preset.

1. Switch starts out open, wah is bypassed
2. Close switch, wah switches to not-bypassed
3. Change presets, come back to original preset. Wah is now bypassed, switch is closed
4. Hit switch, now it's open. Wah bypass toggles so that it's now not bypassed.

I know that kind of thing is a bit tricky and requires a little extra storage in the firmware since you have to remember the last state of the switch. I'm not sure whether the FM3 uses a polling-based or interrupt-based approach, but it should be fairly straightforward to implement either way. I built a footswitch that did this using a Peavey 2-button footswitch and an Adafruit Trinket, but I know that's not really comparing apples-to-apples.

Maybe I'll put it up in the Wish List forum.
 
Yes. The main issue I had was whenever I started the FM3, my wah would come ON even though the preset had it OFF saved. I turned PC reset ON and now I have this issue instead.
So the Wah would come on, regardless of whether you set it up for Normally Open or Normally Closed?
 
So the Wah would come on, regardless of whether you set it up for Normally Open or Normally Closed?
Yes, the only way I found to fix this was to turn on PC Reset, but then PC Reset creates the double tap issue... lol
Here are the settings. Regardless of normally open or closed, same issue:1.png
 
Argh. I'm just typo-ing all over the place today. I meant something like a momentary switch that can toggle the current state of something regardless of the physical state of the switch.

Basically: The state of the switch changed (doesn't matter if it's open->closed or closed->open), so toggle the state of a controller, regardless of its current state.

For example, consider a preset with "PC Reset" enabled for the Wah's Bypass controller, set up so that the Wah always starts out bypassed when selecting that preset.

1. Switch starts out open, wah is bypassed
2. Close switch, wah switches to not-bypassed
3. Change presets, come back to original preset. Wah is now bypassed, switch is closed
4. Hit switch, now it's open. Wah bypass toggles so that it's now not bypassed.

I know that kind of thing is a bit tricky and requires a little extra storage in the firmware since you have to remember the last state of the switch. I'm not sure whether the FM3 uses a polling-based or interrupt-based approach, but it should be fairly straightforward to implement either way. I built a footswitch that did this using a Peavey 2-button footswitch and an Adafruit Trinket, but I know that's not really comparing apples-to-apples.

Maybe I'll put it up in the Wish List forum.

It’s physically impossible to make a latching switch behave like a momentary switch.

Think about it. When you take your foot off of a momentary switch, the switch changes state. When you take your foot off of a latching switch — nothing happens. There’s no way for the gear to know that you’ve taken your foot off the switch without reading your mind.
 
I think the issue is with the virtual toggle: "If you want a momentary switch to behave like a latching/toggle switch instead, use the "Virtual Toggle" option. Now, every time you tap the switch, its state on the FM3 will flip from ON to OFF, or OFF to ON."

There seems to be a background state for the virtual toggle in the FM3. When put to Virtual Toggle, the FM3 gives a virtual state to the switch. So when I power it on, the virtual toggle is possibly ON.
There must be a way in the modifier editor to make it toggle the effect regardless of state. Bypass or unbypass the effect.
 
I "fixed" it! Not sure if it's supposed to work that way but here are the settings that work:
Switch 2 Tip:
Momentary Open
Virtual Toggle

Then in the bypass modifier:
PC Reset: ON
I swapped the Min and Max so Min is Bypassed and Max is Engaged.

Seems to work fine now
 
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It’s physically impossible to make a latching switch behave like a momentary switch.

Think about it. When you take your foot off of a momentary switch, the switch changes state. When you take your foot off of a latching switch — nothing happens. There’s no way for the gear to know that you’ve taken your foot off the switch without reading your mind.

Yeah, but it's not impossible to simulate it in software. It's just... a bit tricky. As I said, I've done it before.
 
I "fixed" it! Not sure if it's supposed to work that way but here are the settings that work:
Switch 2 Tip:
Momentary Open
Virtual Toggle

Then in the bypass modifier:
PC Reset: ON
I swapped the Min and Max so Min is Bypassed and Max is Engaged.

Seems to work fine now
Well done! Flipping Min and Max is a valid fix that I should have thought of. :)
 
Yeah, but it's not impossible to simulate it in software. It's just... a bit tricky. As I said, I've done it before.
TBH, I'd like to see that. How can the software know that you've taken your foot off the switch when it doesn't receive a signal that says you have?
 
Yeah, but it's not impossible to simulate it in software. It's just... a bit tricky. As I said, I've done it before.

I think Rex misunderstood your post because you said "momentary". You're talking about a physically latching switch being able to toggle an effect based on any state change, correct?

I think there might be a way to do this by configuring the switch as a stand-in for a bypass switch in an FC layout. Virtual Toggle should be off for a latching switch. OP in thread here seemed to get it working as desired, but didn't clarify if the switches were latching or momentary hardware.

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/solved-external-switches-and-scenes.161749/post-1939581
 
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