Help me please! - Axe with a Tube Amp - 4cm, adc dac, tone suck, etc

I've currently a 2018 EVH 5150iii 6L6 50 watt (concentric pots) in 4CM with the FM3, no tone / signal loss.

I had a 2011 JVM210h that didn't like the Axe-Fx II in 4CM and squealed and became microphonic.

I had a 1978 JMP 2203 I modded a zero loss fx loop into it, and it worked ok with 4CM, but due to the design, the loop had a low signal bleed which caused phase issues.

I had a 2016 DSL100H that was good with the Axe-Fx II in 4CM, no issues but could not switch channels.

I had a 2012 Mesa Dual Rec that was good with the Axe-Fx II in 4CM but it just didn't sound good unless cranked way too loud.
 
jackal.like.the.animal said:
I've gotten the opposite response from a fairly knowledgeable amp tech in my area - they said that running any digital fx / digital distortion pedals will mangle the tube amps natural even order harmonics. My assumption is that fractal tube amp models are designed to output more even order harmonics, but what about the distortion pedals / running a clean patch, will that have any inherent effect? Not that I don't necessarily trust what you say random stranger on the internet, I'm just looking for more opinions / more in depth responses. and yeah ! thanks
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What a nice multi layered pile of hogwash hodgepodgery.
 
Well, spending ‘a few hours’ tweaking tones is what a lot guitar players tend to (like to) do to get in the zone? I do.

As far as the Fractal models go, I’m getting sounds I love faster and more consistently.

One of the keys for me is to get it in the ballpark at a room level, then turn it up to stage level to tweak it with a looper. I use a separate looper for this to lessen CPU drain. Twiddling this and that, you’ll start to find those sweet spots with EQ, IR’s, etc… Yes, can get tedious too.

Later, I use fresh ears to evaluate further. After the field test (gig), fine-tune as needed. This last step might never be quite finished… 😉
 
jackal.like.the.animal said:
I've gotten the opposite response from a fairly knowledgeable amp tech in my area - they said that running any digital fx / digital distortion pedals will mangle the tube amps natural even order harmonics.
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Get a better informed tech. Tube’s even-order harmonics are the result of physics and removing physics is hard to do. I’m still working on anti-gravity and perpetual motion.
 
I have tested using an Axe Fx 3 in 4cm as well as just in the FX loop with a Bogner 20th Anniversary Ecstasy, so I can probably chime in here. :)

Running the Axe Fx 3 just in the loop is noise free and tone tampering from the Axe Fx 3 is beyond minimal. Sounds great!

In 4CM method, it's great as well but it does add something slightly extra to the feel and sound of the amp and it does add noise in my setup. Using a humbuster does help with the noise but it doesn't get rid of it completely.

As far as the "something slightly extra" that I mentioned... It's not a day or night difference by any means, and it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's certainly not completely transparent but it's more than usable! As mentioned before it's imperative that you get your levels and gain structures set properly.

From what I have seen and read, most of the bands mentioned in this thread, that are using an Axe Fx 3 with their live amps are not running in 4cm. They are using the Axe Fx 3 in their amps loop, and real pedals in the front of their amps. Ex: John Petrucci.

All that said, 4cm with the Axe Fx 3 is still killer and you can cover some serious ground with it!
 
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jackal.like.the.animal said:
I've gotten the opposite response from a fairly knowledgeable amp tech in my area - they said that running any digital fx / digital distortion pedals will mangle the tube amps natural even order harmonics. My assumption is that fractal tube amp models are designed to output more even order harmonics, but what about the distortion pedals / running a clean patch, will that have any inherent effect? Not that I don't necessarily trust what you say random stranger on the internet, I'm just looking for more opinions / more in depth responses. and yeah ! thanks
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Your tech is partially correct. In distortion, tube amps create 2nd, 3rd and 4th (some) order harmonic content. The second order harmonics are what we all love to hear from our Marshalls. In general, digital equipment has a tendency to suppress second order harmonics.

So, if you are creating distortion harmonics at your pre-amp, and then insert digital into the Fx loop, you may lose some of the second order harmonic content. In this case, better to create your distortion at the power amp.

However, if you are creating distortion in the power amp section, but putting digital effects after, my guess is you have greater concerns than second order harmonics.
 
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HereToday said:
Your tech is partially correct. In distortion, tube amps create 2nd, 3rd and 4th (some) order harmonic content. The second order harmonics are what we all love to hear from our Marshalls. In general, digital equipment has a tendency to suppress second order harmonics.

So, if you are creating distortion harmonics at your pre-amp, and then insert digital into the Fx loop, you may lose some of the second order harmonic content. In this case, better to create your distortion at the power amp.

However, if you are creating distortion in the power amp section, but putting digital effects after, my guess is you have greater concerns than second order harmonics.
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This is patently false.

First of all, we do NOT love second harmonics. Even-order harmonics are what creates "mud". Guitar distortion circuits produce far more odd harmonics than even. A small amount of even harmonics are desirable to give "warmth" but too much and the sound will be muddy and indistinct.

Secondly, digital equipment simply cannot "suppress second order harmonics". I can't even write anymore about that because the postulate is absurd.
 
In a universe where Cliff has an infinite amount of time, I would love to read his book "guitar tone myths debunked"!
I will now go back to my axe fx III with the protective foil still attached and the output knob on 7, because this is how a fractal sounds best! (MK1! Mk2 - totally different ball game!)
 
FractalAudio said:
This is patently false.

First of all, we do NOT love second harmonics. Even-order harmonics are what creates "mud". Guitar distortion circuits produce far more odd harmonics than even. A small amount of even harmonics are desirable to give "warmth" but too much and the sound will be muddy and indistinct.

Secondly, digital equipment simply cannot "suppress second order harmonics". I can't even write anymore about that because the postulate is absurd.
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I tend to like the first octave, so maybe I should have said "I, instead of "we". My bad.

Maybe you don't use them at all in your equipment (of which I was making no commentary, BTW), but my understanding is that differential amps, for example, not only cancel noise, but second order effects as well. How is that absurd?
 
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HereToday said:
I tend to like the first octave, so maybe I should have said "I, instead of "we". My bad.

Maybe you don't use them at all in your equipment (of which I was making no commentary, BTW), but my understanding is that differential amps, for example, not only cancel noise, but second order effects as well. How is that absurd?
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A differential amplifier is analog so it has nothing to do with "digital equipment suppressing second order harmonics".

The statement implies that digital equipment can someone identify second order harmonics and selectively remove them, which is impossible and, hence, absurd.
 
People love bashing “digital”. The more buzz words it contains and convoluted it sounds, the easier it is to propagate these myths.
 
FractalAudio said:
A differential amplifier is analog so it has nothing to do with "digital equipment suppressing second order harmonics".

The statement implies that digital equipment can someone identify second order harmonics and selectively remove them, which is impossible and, hence, absurd.
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Fine, it's an analog component. One that happens to be found in ACD's, IEM and instrument wireless, mic preamps, consoles, multi-effect pedals, power amps - you know - pretty much anywhere today's circuit designer can be a hero by saying he/she lowered their noise levels. Again, I must apologize for inadvertently wandering into 1's and 0's where I shouldn't have, because my intent was not to bash digital. Based on that list, I am happy to amend to my original statement to read "equipment that musicians use". Hopefully, that will suffice to get me off your "absurd poster" list and back onto "good customer" list.

Regardless, I still stand by the original intent of my post. If you like your even-order harmonics, you need to understand what equipment you are sticking in your signal chain.
 
HereToday said:
Regardless, I still stand by the original intent of my post. If you like your even-order harmonics, you need to understand what equipment you are sticking in your signal chain.
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A differential amplifier in a converter doesn’t remove existing second order harmonics on your signal generated by a tube amp for example. What is suppressed if perfectly matched are the even harmonics introduced by the amplifier in the converter itself. Which is a good thing in a high quality convertor as you don’t want any additional distortion added.
 
toneseeker911 said:
A differential amplifier in a converter doesn’t remove existing second order harmonics on your signal generated by a tube amp for example. What is suppressed if perfectly matched are the even harmonics introduced by the amplifier in the converter itself. Which is a good thing in a high quality convertor as you don’t want any additional distortion added.
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Ahh, I can appreciate that although it goes counter a bit to my original understanding. Thanks for pointing that out to me. Not that I really have time these days, but do you know where I could go to understand that concept better?
 
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