Help me please! - Axe with a Tube Amp - 4cm, adc dac, tone suck, etc

[jackal.like.the.animal]

Hello! I'm figuring out my guitar rig right now. My main question is will running an empty patch (no fx no eq, everything at unity) affect the tone or affect tube distortion in any way and how. I know that information will be lost in the digitization process, will anything else happen? etc.

I'm thinking of either running the axe through the FX loop of my amp, or before the preamp (guitar -> axe -> amp), or possibly 4cm.

Is digitization more 'harmful' to the tube sound pre preamp or in fx loop?

Will the tube preamp distortion even harmonics be canceled out or made 'odd' when running through the axe in the fx loop? (does the axe without any amp modelers in play act as a 'solid state amp' in that it will flip the harmonics or whatever?)

If so will those harmonics then be made 'even' again in the poweramp section?

With the axe in the fx loop will it be destructive towards harmonics coming from the preamp but not the poweramp?

If the axe is run before the amp altogether, will it essentially be very similar to running the guitar straight into the amp (as in it would have no effect on the even harmonics)

My understanding is if one were to run a tube preamp into a SS poweramp, the preamp distortion's even harmonics would be destroyed or made odd. Is this the case?

Final question which is unrelated is would an axe input be likely able to handle the output of a low watt tube poweramp? My guess is not


These (to me) seem like some fairly technical questions. Maybe I'm way off in all of this but let me know what you think! I would really appreciate it.

 

[laxu]

Answer to pretty much all of that is no.

Analog to digital and back conversion with modern converters has pretty much no real effect on the sound especially on high quality units like the Axe-Fx.

Any sound difference you notice will be things like cable capacitance and any possible level differences you might encounter. Use a decibel meter to make sure you are listening at the same volume.

And definitely DO NOT try running the speaker output of an amp or poweramp into the input on an Axe-Fx!

 

[jackal.like.the.animal]

I've gotten the opposite response from a fairly knowledgeable amp tech in my area - they said that running any digital fx / digital distortion pedals will mangle the tube amps natural even order harmonics. My assumption is that fractal tube amp models are designed to output more even order harmonics, but what about the distortion pedals / running a clean patch, will that have any inherent effect? Not that I don't necessarily trust what you say random stranger on the internet, I'm just looking for more opinions / more in depth responses. and yeah ! thanks

 

[toneseeker911]

No, the axe fx will not destroy your sound nor add any other audible distortion, it has high quality convertors.
As a preamp / front of amp or in 4CM, it works great. Don’t feed the speaker output of a tube amp to the axe.
And, running a tube preamp into a SS power amp doesn’t destroy the signal either, assuming you have enough headroom in the power amp and are not distorting it.

 

[laxu]

I've gotten the opposite response from a fairly knowledgeable amp tech in my area - they said that running any digital fx / digital distortion pedals will mangle the tube amps natural even order harmonics. My assumption is that fractal tube amp models are designed to output more even order harmonics, but what about the distortion pedals / running a clean patch, will that have any inherent effect? Not that I don't necessarily trust what you say random stranger on the internet, I'm just looking for more opinions / more in depth responses. and yeah ! thanks

I would question if that tech has an agenda or is basing their information on digital gear they tried in the 1980s which is so far off from what is available today.

On my real amp rig my main overdrive/distortion pedal is actually a digital one. The Strymon Riverside. It's very easy to compare its effect as it can be set for true bypass, buffered bypass as well as dialed to have basically no effect on the sound. If you can tell a difference vs running direct into the amp then you have better ears than I do.

Similarly you won't mangle your tone using an Axe-Fx 3 even in 4CM.

 

[Sashman]

I've gotten the opposite response from a fairly knowledgeable amp tech in my area - they said that running any digital fx / digital distortion pedals will mangle the tube amps natural even order harmonics. My assumption is that fractal tube amp models are designed to output more even order harmonics, but what about the distortion pedals / running a clean patch, will that have any inherent effect? Not that I don't necessarily trust what you say random stranger on the internet, I'm just looking for more opinions / more in depth responses. and yeah ! thanks

It mostly depends on your amp and the Fx loop.
Put a cable in your loop and listen, if the Fx loop will have an impact on your tone.
I played different tube amps with the Axe in 4CM and the Axe III and Fx8 did never had an impact on the amp sound.
The only time I did notice a difference in tone was when I discovered that the Tube FX Loop of the amp did change the tone when I did engage it.
So try the method that I described above and when the loop itself has no effect on the sound the Axe won’t have one either.

 

[Andrew Male]

I've gotten the opposite response from a fairly knowledgeable amp tech in my area - they said that running any digital fx / digital distortion pedals will mangle the tube amps natural even order harmonics.

Maybe your amp tech has only used 90s Zoom pedals.

 

[sprint]

I use 4CM on 2 amps with Axe3 via loop3 and notice no 4cm degredation (and I tend to be picky about that). One of my amps starts generating a ground loop when hooked up on 4cm that I've been trying to troubleshoot, but I suspect it's something to do with that particular amp since no ground loop happens with the other amp.

 

[laxu]

I use 4CM on 2 amps with Axe3 via loop3 and notice no 4cm degredation (and I tend to be picky about that). One of my amps starts generating a ground loop when hooked up on 4cm that I've been trying to troubleshoot, but I suspect it's something to do with that particular amp since no ground loop happens with the other amp.

Get something like a Lehle P-Split and see if putting that on one of the sends on the isolation out side fixes the problem.

 

[Anand Mahangoe]

I have just made a video with some of your questions and sound comparison on the end of the video where you can here if there is any difference and if it even matters at this high level quality gear like the Axe FX :
1. Amp compared going through the Sxe both pre & post amp
2. Amp through Axe only for post FX
3. Amp going straight to soundcard and Axe in a send return on the Soundcard….

 

[Brucegregori]

I've gotten the opposite response from a fairly knowledgeable amp tech in my area - they said that running any digital fx / digital distortion pedals will mangle the tube amps natural even order harmonics. My assumption is that fractal tube amp models are designed to output more even order harmonics, but what about the distortion pedals / running a clean patch, will that have any inherent effect? Not that I don't necessarily trust what you say random stranger on the internet, I'm just looking for more opinions / more in depth responses. and yeah ! thanks

I have always used the AXE Fx (now mostly the Fm9) as an effect unit only 4cm. There is of course A/D conversion but there is no difference you can tell in sound. Is there a difference? Maybe if you are a nocturnal wooded animal, you could hear a difference, but there is really not. You could always use an AB box to test it out of course. The most important is to make sure you balance the outputs (O1/O2) of the AX as close to what your amp would be putting out without it connected. As far as an amp tech telling you this, and having had some of the best amp techs on the planet, my advice would be to tell you maybe the person you spoke to isn't the right person. This can happen and I mean no offense, but anything you plug into an amp can affect the tone, etc, but there is not much research or real life data to back the statement up. Players using it in ways like this would be Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, John Petrucci, Alex Lifeson and quite possibly an army of others tone junkies who use it just for effects.

 

[sprint]

The most important is to make sure you balance the outputs (O1/O2) of the AX as close to what your amp would be putting out without it connected.

This ^^, but Ax3 makes it easy with output 3/4 designed to be the correct output level for 4CM connection to extetnal preamp input (or to pedals) without any futzing. A main challenge I've had with 4CM on other modellers I've owned was getting that modeller out/Amp preIn level set right.

 

[sprint]

Get something like a Lehle P-Split and see if putting that on one of the sends on the isolation out side fixes the problem.

Thanks - will take a look into that one. I have 2 fairly good quality Radial ISO/Lift boxes that I've moved around in various ways in addition to ensuring all power is coming from the same circuit to try and get rid of it but no go - the amp alone on clean ch with patch cable in the fx loop is quiet, but in 4cm I get a hum - seems to be a common issue with tube amps and not very predictable (strangely, the more expensive / + pure tube circuit amps I've owned have had more hum issues than the less expensive ones that are more of a hybrid circuit). Luckily Axfx gates are excellent at hum hiding without much tone/dynamics loss.

 

[Brucegregori]

Thanks - will take a look into that one. I have 2 fairly good quality Radial ISO/Lift boxes that I've moved around in various ways in addition to ensuring all power is coming from the same circuit to try and get rid of it but no go - seems to be a common issue with tube amps and not very predictable (strangely, the more expensive / + pure tube circuit amps I've owned have had more hum issues than the less expensive ones that are more of a hybrid circuit). Luckily Axfx gates are excellent at hum hiding without much tone/dynamics loss.

I use an EbTech hum elim. Works flawlessly...

 

[My name is mud]

Depends of the quality of the fx loop of the amp.
Some amp works well with external unit, some not. Some amps after 2 pedals in the loop begins to be muffled in the high frequencies .

I don’t use 4 cm. But when I plug my axe 3 in the fx loop in my JP2c for effects only, it don’t eat the sound.

Another friend of mine use a Friedman and tell me that in 4cm, the sound is a little bit eaten up.
Depends of the fx loop yes. And also the tube related

 

[jackal.like.the.animal]

Thank you guys I appreciate the replies. This forum is amazing.

 

[JoKeR III]

I've gotten the opposite response from a fairly knowledgeable amp tech in my area - they said that running any digital fx / digital distortion pedals will mangle the tube amps natural even order harmonics. My assumption is that fractal tube amp models are designed to output more even order harmonics, but what about the distortion pedals / running a clean patch, will that have any inherent effect? Not that I don't necessarily trust what you say random stranger on the internet, I'm just looking for more opinions / more in depth responses. and yeah ! thanks

Well, you are asking a question on a forum so answers and opinions are going to be from random strangers on the internet.

I don't believe it's a matter of who to trust, it's a matter of experience. Your amp tech may be extremely knowledgeable and a wizard when it comes to amps but lack actual experience with what you're asking. I knew Fractal was all hype because a lot of the great players I knew said so. It wasn't until I came here and lurked for awhile that I eventually bought my first FAS device and discovered that it wasn't all hype.

 

[666was999]

I've gotten the opposite response from a fairly knowledgeable amp tech in my area - they said that running any digital fx / digital distortion pedals will mangle the tube amps natural even order harmonics.

Now that's weird.
Since almost every piece of music on the planet gets played back from a digital file or even from a shrinked down mp3 or acc or alike and then gets amplified via ss or digital power amps, now how does he explain that? He'd then say that even order harmonics don't exist out there?
So if they don't exist in recorded music and if they don't translate through a ss or digital amplified pa system, that would mean they don't matter anyway.
They should at least find their way through the power amp of a digital p.a. system to be worth considering.

 

[jackal.like.the.animal]

Now that's weird.
Since almost every piece of music on the planet gets played back from a digital file or even from a shrinked down mp3 or acc or alike and then gets amplified via ss or digital power amps, now how does he explain that? He'd then say that even order harmonics don't exist out there?
So if they don't exist in recorded music and if they don't translate through a ss or digital amplified pa system, that would mean they don't matter anyway.
They should at least find their way through the power amp of a digital p.a. system to be worth considering.

yeah you're totally right it makes no sense lol. weird. do you know are there some amp models (perhaps of solid state amps) or some distortion blocks that are more ''solid state'' / odd harmonic distortions? Would like to intelligently integrate solid state and tube distortion into a mix. both guitarists run axe fx.

 

[666was999]

yeah you're totally right it makes no sense lol. weird. do you know are there some amp models (perhaps of solid state amps) or some distortion blocks that are more ''solid state'' / odd harmonic distortions? Would like to intelligently integrate solid state and tube distortion into a mix. both guitarists run axe fx.

Since for ages stomp manufacturers were after the target to get their stomps sound like as close as possible like a tube unit, the better they reached their target the less you get a solid state sound. Former decades stuff, crappy and cheap vintage stompies often sounding hard and unforgiving, now that is more of a solid state sound that stands out and makes a difference. However they used them to boost tube amps, I doubt you find many hits were the played a solid state stompy alone right into the mixing console. Maybe some Randy Roads stuff, crazy sounds there.
What I really like as solid state is the rocktron maxe preamp, it's totally nuts, crazy solid state sound. The Rat rack version is similar. So far the maxe is not in the Axe3 but at least the Rat is there.