HELP! becoming disillusioned with my Utra a month in.

so...for the 12 fx blocks...look at send/return blocks in the manual and you don't have to run anything in parallel...but, yeah you gotta deal with gain staging when you keep adding additive pathways to your signal.

4CM...if it sounds crap hard-bypassed the issue is something else than the box, describe your set-up and all knob settings.
 
As far as there being no difference between plugging guitar in directly to the amp or going through Axe-Fx or any pedal that does not have a true hard wire bypass, the impedance is most likely to mismatch and from my experience sounds quite different YMMV.

Typical input Z on a guitar amp is 1meg, same as the axe. If you are using a low Z input on the amp it can be approximated by adding a lowpass filter in the axe to attenuate hi's.

Output Z of typical boss pedal is 1k. Axe output Z is 100 ohms. In either case, feeding a 1meg input results in a voltage transfer known as impedance bridging. This is typical and results in an adequate voltage signal developement with no significant change in tone.

As for the "special sauce"
http://www.fractalaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14429&p=136473&hilit=special+sauce#p136473

So, I cannot see where using the axe as opposed to a boss pedal before a guitar amp would significantly change the tone based on impedance.

My test:
Plugged into axe with shunts and no gate. Input knob adjusted to "tickle the red". Adusted output knob to match the level the guitar would normally feed to the amp. Global eq flat. A-B'ed back and forth and noted differences.

There may have been a very slight brightening or extending of freq. range of the signal through the axe; definitely not muffled or dull. This brightening may be typical of the difference between guitar pickups being fed staright into the amp and any typical effect pedal placed before an amp; I'll have to check that. If needed, a lowpass filter would easily solve this.

There is a about a 6db increase in signal level when engaging the "bypass" (above tempo) button. Increasing the output mix by about 6db solves this. (Hmmm, interesting that a single row of shunts results in about a -6db decrease from a "hard" bypass...wonder would happen if I had used more rows...? each parallel row adds about 3 or 6db, right?)

Adding a few effects worked as expected...

My test were done late and at very low volume - just a very quick reference, resulting in a general observations.

I am using an old marshall jcm800 for these test. I will have to find something with a proper fx loop at some point.
 
Ed DeGenaro said:
but, yeah you gotta deal with gain staging when you keep adding additive pathways to your signal.

Simpler: any block addedd in paralel double the level. Cure:
Option 1 - cut the level in each block
Option 2 - put wet at 100% an adjust fx with level; add dry only in one block.
 
Thanks everyone for the suggestions here. I won't have access to my gear for a week but am enjoying contemplating the solutions you guys are suggesting :!: Keep'em coming :?:
 
Smilzo said:
Ed DeGenaro said:
but, yeah you gotta deal with gain staging when you keep adding additive pathways to your signal.

Simpler: any block addedd in paralel double the level. Cure:
Option 1 - cut the level in each block
Option 2 - put wet at 100% an adjust fx with level; add dry only in one block.
@smilzo. i have already explored these and while it was helpful, i hasn't fully corrected the gain staging when running more than 12 effects blocks with some in parallel routing.
 
Hi.
You could also try to change bypass mode to mute in for all the parallel effects blocks.
 
Just wanted to chime in on the 4CM issue. While I believe the Axe is a great piece of work, I don't believe it's designed to work well in a 4CM mode. I did some extensive testing last night using my JVM410 and it didn't get anywhere close to something that sounded decent unless I used low gain stomp boxes prior to input to the JVM. I equalized the levels between the JVM and the Axe using a loop on my Gsystem. The GSystem loops are true by pass so using a black patch, I was able to easily set levels to achieve optimal SNR. Even with levels identical, there was a notable difference in audio quality when I engaged the Axe loop. Anyways, I really just tested drive boxes as I have a real fuzz face and BB Preamps in loops 1 & 2 of the GSystem so it was very easy to do side by side comparison. While using the Axe in 4CM via a loop in the Gsystem, there was no comparison as the original pedals sound 100% better. However, I also tested the Axe straight into the power amp section of my Egnater Renegade/Tourmaster Cabinet and it sounds awesome. I can get almost get an exact duplicate of the fuzzface and bb preamp. My PA system is all Behringer which is not all that great so I'm reluctant to to comment on audio quality in that regard. I have recorded direct into a zoom R16 via XLR and it sounds amazing. One thing I have noticed is that the XLR signals are very hot very similiar to the direct out of my JVM. Even with the gain turned all the way down on my board, the signal clips the input. This is with the output at 7/8:00. Anyone know if there is an adjustment for the XLR outputs? I use the Balanced and Unbalanced outputs from Output 1 and with such a huge difference in signal level, it makes it difficult to use the Axe that was I want to. BTW ..... I do understand the difference between balanced and unbalanced before you go there! :)
 
While I believe the Axe is a great piece of work, I don't believe it's designed to work well in a 4CM mode. I did some extensive testing last night using my JVM410 and it didn't get anywhere close to something that sounded decent unless I used low gain stomp boxes prior to input to the JVM.

There is absolutely nothing about the axe that inhibits it from being used in the 4cm. If you are getting colored sounds (with shunts or effects bypassed) from the axe fx you simply do not have it set up correctly. Are you using global eq? Are you using front input?

Sorry, it is not my intention to sound harsh but the axe is virtually transparent, gain levels are abundantly manipulated and the unit is excedingly quiet. The effects are state of the art.

There are numerous people using the axe in a 4cm and some of them make there living playing the guitar - some are among the best in the field.
http://www.petrucciforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68428

Why are others successfully using the axe fx in the 4cm?
It must certainly be capable, possibly even state of the art, when such players as JP choose it for thier gear, right?
 
guitarmike said:
While I believe the Axe is a great piece of work, I don't believe it's designed to work well in a 4CM mode. I did some extensive testing last night using my JVM410 and it didn't get anywhere close to something that sounded decent unless I used low gain stomp boxes prior to input to the JVM.

There is absolutely nothing about the axe that inhibits it from being used in the 4cm. If you are getting colored sounds (with shunts or effects bypassed) from the axe fx you simply do not have it set up correctly. Are you using global eq? Are you using front input?

Sorry, it is not my intention to sound harsh but the axe is virtually transparent, gain levels are abundantly manipulated and the unit is excedingly quiet. The effects are state of the art.

There are numerous people using the axe in a 4cm and some of them make there living playing the guitar - some are among the best in the field.
http://www.petrucciforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68428

Why are others successfully using the axe fx in the 4cm?
It must certainly be capable, possibly even state of the art, when such players as JP choose it for thier gear, right?




No offense, but I really don't care what Petrucci or anyone else is doing. Yes, I'm sure many people use the Axe Fx in 4CM and good for them. I'm a EE so I know a thing or two about setting levels, SNR, etc.... Agreed, I should not have stated the Axe is not designed for the 4CM as I didn't design it and have no right to claim one way or the other. All I know is it sounded like crap and it's not the way I want to use it! Thx...
 
I have also been trying 4cm with my axe-fx and Mesa Mark V and to be honest the drive pedals in front sound disappointing to me. The main thing im trying to do is get a nice chimey broken up clean on channel 1. I have a boss sd-1 lying around that sounds better... and im not even a huge fan of the sd-1. I dont know what it is but into studio monitors the drives sound fine with the axe-fx's amp and cab sims....the times ive used it with traditional guitar gear not so much....YMMV

If there are any pitfalls i should be watching out for please do tell. Ive taken care to match my signal levels and use decent cable and connectors. Oh and i definitely hear a difference when running the axe-fx (all shunts) in front of my Mark V. It definitely sounds more compressed. To those using the axe-fx in front of an amp: how transparent are you guys finding it?
 
Cron said:
I have also been trying 4cm with my axe-fx and Mesa Mark V and to be honest the drive pedals in front sound disappointing to me. The main thing im trying to do is get a nice chimey broken up clean on channel 1. I have a boss sd-1 lying around that sounds better... and im not even a huge fan of the sd-1. I dont know what it is but into studio monitors the drives sound fine with the axe-fx's amp and cab sims....the times ive used it with traditional guitar gear not so much....YMMV

If there are any pitfalls i should be watching out for please do tell. Ive taken care to match my signal levels and use decent cable and connectors. Oh and i definitely hear a difference when running the axe-fx (all shunts) in front of my Mark V. It definitely sounds more compressed. To those using the axe-fx in front of an amp: how transparent are you guys finding it?
I use my axe in front of my port city rig. I find it transparent enough for me and I use a lot of clean tones. I do have to use my global eq to compensate for some tone change when pluging the axe using the 2cbl method.
 
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