HELP! becoming disillusioned with my Utra a month in.

C

Cory508

Inspired
:(
I'm becoming frustrated with the Axe FX Ultra on a number of levels and I'm hoping you guys might be able to throw me a life jacket.

Here are the concerns that are defeating me:

1. Fractal's email support is a bit disappointing now that I've purchased their product. I mean, they send me support replies "read your manual or check the forum", that doesn't sit well with me when i purchase a $2K effects unit, especially when i only email them for support when i have exhausted all other possibilities before contacting them. After a buyer reads and references the Manual & Forum for hours on a issue, it seems the buyer should be able to get tech support without feeling like it's annoying Fractal. I'll admit, i might be a little challenged when it comes to uber technical stuff but i and my musical associates consider myself more technical than a lot of other musicians we know. It just seems to me that you don't make a processor like this for guitar players and not anticipate a certain volume of support needs. I mean why not do like the early Logic company or Apple and give one year of Support whenever needed and charge a reasonable fee after that one year period. I realize that Fractal is probably a small company but they can't expect folk to not need their help at least getting their system setup the way they envisioned before purchasing the unit.

2. I thought I'd get the Ultra to use in a couple ways.
   A. as a direct to front of house for church. (with amp/cab simulation)
   B. as a (virtual Pedal Board) fx's only in 4CM with my Mesa Lonestar for Club Gigs. (without amp/cab simulation)
   C. Direct for recording.

3. Here are the Main technical issues i can't seem to resolve no matter how much i read the manual or the forum:

  A. My Guitar tone going straight into the Mesa Lonestar is Stellar, the Ultra in 4CM definitely color's the tone in a way that loses some of it's natural brilliance. I add highs back in with a graphic eq or the output1 eq but something disappears ... and when i put the ultra in global bypass mode, the tone is super dull and not even close to transparent.

  B. I'm using more than 12 effect blocks for my 4CM Mesa hook up. So some effects are wired in Parallel. So of course I'm getting some output level build up or (gain staging) that i can't really seem to get rid of even though I've explored all the bypass modes and level to Mix ratio scenario's. But i want the signal to be the same Level and Tone whenever i use effect bypass or global bypass. I wanted to use the Ultra as one big FX board. I don't know for sure but it seems like it has a lot of possibilities but it also seems like the original tone is incapable of being maintained.

I really want the Ultra to work for me especially since i sold most of my pedal board to get the Ultra, so if any of you guys can revive my hopes here, it would be much appreciated.
:(
 
AlbertA said:
Sounds like a gain staging problem
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Alberta, how does one go about successfully fixing that, I've worked with the Level's and the Mix ratio's, what else could i try, should i be doing something else in the Layout Mixer or something?
 
Not sure you need to go 4CM if you are using through the Lone Star's effect loop unless of course you plan to use effects in front of the Lone Star input. If not, just hook it up with 2 cables but make sure you use the rear input on the Axe-Fx for that. I can certainly see how your tone will change if you put the Axe-Fx in front of the Lone Star even when bypassed as I do not believe that the Axe-Fx has a "true" bypass. Minimally, the Lone Star will see a different type and strength of signal coming in from the Axe-Fx compared to just your guitar. For one thing, the Axe-Fx will feed it a Line level signal.

Even if you don't intend to use the Axe-Fx with the 2 CM as mentioned above, give it a try and see if it becomes more transparent this way.

I run a lot of parallel effects as well and I always use a Mixer block to bring them back together.

Good luck!
 
For one thing, the Axe-Fx will feed it a Line level signal.
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Why? The gain can be adjusted from zero up to whatever - it is completely variable all the way down to zero.

I would break it down into simple steps.

Step 1:
*Start with axe input and output at "0".

*Plug straight into the front of the axe; out of a quarter inch output into the front of the amp.

*Start with no processing at all, nothing but shunts. Noise gate off.

*With the axe output at "0", and your amp set as you normally would use it, bring up the axe input volume until the input red just flickers (as normal for the axe).

*You should have zero signal at the output of the axe.

*Bring up the output to a level equal to the normal guitar signal level that the amp would see if you plugged straight into it -

***Be careful with this; take time and A-B back and forth to get the output level right. In other words, plug into the axe and then into the amp comparing and adjusting the axe output unitil it's the same as the raw guitar signal.


There may be a very slight tone difference due to a change in impedence, but it should be no different than having a bypassed boss pedal in front of your amp. If it is, then something is seriously wrong.

I admit I have not tried this 4 cable method or even running the axe into the front end of an amp;
I will try this exactly as I have indicated tommorow and I will report my findings.

If all goes well, we will move on to stage two!

Fwiw, I can plug my acoustic in to the front of the axe, with no effects, and then out to the pa and it sounds perfectly uncolored and I have complete control over the gain levels.
 
Cory508 said:
1. Fractal's email support is a bit disappointing now that I've purchased their product. ....I realize that Fractal is probably a small company but they can't expect folk to not need their help at least getting their system setup the way they envisioned before purchasing the unit.
Click to expand...
I don't think the "lack of support" is standard operating procedure with FAS - not with what I've seen/read on these forums since I started "lurking" almost 2 yrs ago. I only joined back in Jan.
They ARE a small company and I think they are simply swamped with all the orders/shipping around availability of the MFC-101, both state-side and G66 in Europe.

While I understand your frustration, some of the assistance/recommendations I've provided you in other threads leads me to believe that while you say you and your associates are " more technical than a lot of other musicians we know" - that's not the case. NO OFFENSE intended with that statement, and I do sense your frustration here.. merely trying to put it in perspective.

IIRC - I asked previously why you want to have TWO different setups and insist on using the 4CM/Lonestar approach for clubs, but direct to FOH for church ????? I also recall suggesting setting up ONE set of patches and using FRFR stage monitors to build and monitor those patches, turn on "COPY OUT1->OUT2", set OUT1 go to FOH via XLR, and OUT2 to the FRFR's. AS others have suggested, follow the K.I.S.S. principle...
I am definitely not alone in believing the Ultra is PLENTY capable of delivering the tone you are seeking, but I don't think the problem is with the Axe. You are over-complicating the process and while the 4CM may work for some, it's not working for you, so drop it and go back to basics. Don't blame the tool. There's plenty of folks on this forum who get kick-*ss tone from the Axe, and just look at the list of endorsees! They can't all be wrong.

Failing all that, maybe the Axe is [really] not for you and you should downgrade to something less of a challenge. Hook up a GT10 and possibly get better results with 4MC? I dunno... my $0.02
 
I should start this post clarifying that I think the Axe sounds great using the preset's from the factory, my issue's are coming from whether or not i can get it serve all the purposes i had in mind when making the decision to purchase it.
Now, i will concede that my frustration may be engendered by my own technical short comings but that is why i posted for "HELP" on the forum. I actually want to be completely wrong on this one, so i appreciate any and all of you guys suggestions and criticisms.

@Dinkledorf: Yes, when using the AXE in 4CM, it is because i wanted to run Drives, Wha's, Whammy etc... in Front of the Amp and simultaneously run time based effects such as Delay & Reverb through the Mesa LoneStar Fx loop.


@Dinkledorf, you also said
I run a lot of parallel effects as well
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...can you elaborate on how the Mixer Block is helpful to you and the scenarios you apply it in when running a lot of parallel effects because i'm also trying to run a lot of parallel effects and sounds like gain staging is a problem in parallel routing.

@Dinkledorf: Why
make sure you use the rear input
Click to expand...
for 2CM?

@Guitarmike: Thanks for your suggestion in detail on A/B'ing in 2CM. I'll go back and revisit that.

@s0c9: "NO OFFENSE" taken, your assistance on these threads has been a real life line and enormously appreciated.
IIRC - I asked previously why you want to have TWO different setups and insist on using the 4CM/Lonestar approach for clubs, but direct to FOH for church ????? I also recall suggesting setting up ONE set of patches and using FRFR stage monitors to build and monitor those patches, turn on "COPY OUT1->OUT2", set OUT1 go to FOH via XLR, and OUT2 to the FRFR's. AS others have suggested, follow the K.I.S.S. principle...
Click to expand...
I did in fact take your suggestion and turned on the "COPY OUT1->OUT2", set OUT1 go to FOH via XLR, and OUT2 to the FRFR's" and that works great for church. Plugging the axe FOH in church is working out great!
Recording through it at home also works great!

Now, when i play gigs i don't prefer to use any amp/cab sims but want to use my Mesa LoneStar with Ultra effects Only ie... (delays, reverb, modulation, wha's etc but NO AMP/CAB SIMS). I don't own FRFR monitors so i would be at the mercy of what any given club had, i also wouldn't want to lug two extra monitors around. In short, i'm happy with the Mesa and purchased the Ultra to compliment it on club gigs. I don't want to lug in my full rig for church performances.
I basically have 3 rigs i use for different work:
1. i can plug straight in with the AXE.
2. i can amp up in a small venue with a Fender Blues Junior with the Axe as Pedal Board in 2CM.
3. I can use my main Mesa LoneStar rig with the Axe as Pedal Board in 2CM but was hoping for 4CM.
Again, s0c9 i appreciate your help.

Well, it seems like the general consensus here is to abandon the 4CM idea. It sounds like the 2CM will simplify things and i will explore those suggestions in hopes that it simplifies things and maintains the original tone better.

But please Guys, any further suggestion's are welcomed.
 
If by general consensus you mean a couple of people then probably yes.

Gain staging is setting up your levels all across your path, so that you don't overload any stage and orthogonally also optimize your SNR.

Maybe the loop in your amp just sucks, I don't believe the axe is the reason for your apparent tone suckage in 4CM mode.
 
AlbertA said:
If by general consensus you mean a couple of people then probably yes.

Gain staging is setting up your levels all across your path, so that you don't overload any stage and orthogonally also optimize your SNR.

Maybe the loop in your amp just sucks, I don't believe the axe is the reason for your apparent tone suckage in 4CM mode.
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Thanks AlbertA, i've explored setting the block levels as well as Mix to level Ratio's, I'm having more of an issue with Parallel routing and gain staging.
Next i will try, using the mixer block with parallel routing. I'll also try going back to 2CM.
 
Cory,
didn't you mention somewhere in a post that you have about 12+ effect blocks going ?
 
That is a lot of effects, but as already mentioned, you should be able to make it work. I wouldn't give up on the 4cm. I also don't have decent frfr anywhere but at home. The foh at church is ok but the monitors suck. I believe petrucci is using 4cm (maybe just in the loop, not sure), and if thats what you want to do, then do it. I have a marshall that I love and would like the option to go 4cm myself, maybe...someday. I am certainly willing to step through it with you - at least I will try.

I believe you can have the best of everything here, but you are going to have to break this down one step at a time. Let me know how my suggestion works out and maybe we can go from there.
 
Cory508 said:
s0c9 said:
Cory,
didn't you mention somewhere in a post that you have about 12+ effect blocks going ?
Click to expand...
Yes, thats totally correct.
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Cory, think about how that would work on a pedalboard. Think about 12 stomp boxes in the chain, all tethered with 1/4 jacks and 9v power supplies :cry: Think about the noise/gain/hum that is introduced when all of those are on... comp, drive, boost, phaser, flanger, chorus, delay, stereo enhancer, EQ, etc... That chain makes it a major challenge to keep clean, prevent noise, keep gain levels under control, etc.

Take away the 1/4 + 9v bits -- and altho' the effects on the Axe are STELLAR (IMHO) -- you have no less a challenge ahead of you. This is not the fault of the Axe, its basic signal chain processing. As I've mentioned before.. perhaps you should revisit what you are trying to accomplish and simplify things some ??

Can you post a pic of your effects chain in the Axe ?
 
guitarmike said:
That is a lot of effects, but as already mentioned, you should be able to make it work. I wouldn't give up on the 4cm. I also don't have decent frfr anywhere but at home. The foh at church is ok but the monitors suck. I believe petrucci is using 4cm (maybe just in the loop, not sure), and if thats what you want to do, then do it. I have a marshall that I love and would like the option to go 4cm myself, maybe...someday. I am certainly willing to step through it with you - at least I will try.

I believe you can have the best of everything here, but you are going to have to break this down one step at a time. Let me know how my suggestion works out and maybe we can go from there.
Click to expand...

Thanks a million Guitarmike, i'm going to map it out better and see what effects i might be able to do without before i make a new preset. I don't have my gear until Monday but i'll definitely be taking you up on your generous offer. :!:
 
As I've mentioned before.. perhaps you should revisit what you are trying to accomplish and simplify things some ??
Click to expand...
s0c9, how would you suggest i go about starting to do that?
Do you mean cutting some effects and sticking to 2CM?
 
First and most important, don't give up!

I have gone through the exact same thing with absolutely every single effects processor that I have ever tried, including the my ultra. You WILL find what works for you in time. In fact most of the processors I have had I don't use in public for at least a 2-3 months. I had my Rocktron Prophesy for 3 months before I ventured out to use it as an effects processor and then it took another 3-4 months to program the amp simulators to MY liking. I have had my Ultra since the middle of August and I've only used it in public for one song so far. I am in no huge rush because I have something that is fully functional until I am fully ready to debut my Ultra.

Since what you have done has not worked for you, my first suggestions would be to start with a clean slate. A completely empty preset with nothing but shunts in the signal path. Then you can find the way to connect your axe in a way that will sound the right way for you from the very start. Don't forget to defeat the GATE (page 27 in the manual) at the start of the signal chain if you don't need it and adjust the MAIN MIX at the end of the signal chain to get your balance between the Axe in or Axe out of your signal chain. The input and output knobs on the front of the Axe are VERY important to set properly too. Once you find the way of connecting your Axe so it works straight through without sucking your tone, then and only then, start adding the effects blocks one at a time fine tuning each one by itself to maintain the output level you are looking for, (generally speaking, output dB level of any given effect should be roughly same as input dB level) this should help a bit with gain staging so you don't have a progressive overloading error of the gain from one effect to another. Be diligent to get one effect RIGHT before going on to the next. You can always fine tune things as needed after you get everything in place. If you put everything in the signal chain at once it is almost impossible to figure out which "thingy" to adjust without bypassing each effect one at a time to figure it out.

Kinda wordy, but it has worked well for me. It is hard to go wrong doing it this way. Now you know why it takes me a while to program things.

Good luck and ROCK ON!!!

EDIT: Fixed typos.
 
Cory508 said:
As I've mentioned before.. perhaps you should revisit what you are trying to accomplish and simplify things some ??
Click to expand...
s0c9, how would you suggest i go about starting to do that?
Do you mean cutting some effects and sticking to 2CM?
Click to expand...
Spoons kinda beat me to it!!!! What he said :)
To be clear I was never suggestion simplification as in cutting. Simplification as in starting from scratch and getting thinfs working. The definition of insanity is to continually repeat the same procedure and expect a different outcome. If it's not working for you with everything plugged in, backup to zero and start from there. You'll be surprised at the tone you can get out of this beast with only an amp, cab and some reverb!
 
FWIW I have exactly the same problem as the OP when runnin the axefx in 4cm with my Mesa mark v. My tone is quite a bit duller than straight into the amp. I always start with empty patches and make sure to match levels etc. It is definitely plugging into the front of the axefx that is causing the dull sound because my mesa's effects loop is stellar and the axefx sounds perfect in the loop only using the rear input.

I have abandoned 4cm for now but if someone has any more suggestions I'm all ears. If there are ppl that are successfully running 4cm please chime in.
 
This is how bring all parallel chains back together again using the mixer block. Works for me to keep the Clip light off consistently.

MixerBlock.jpg


Comment regarding using the rear input was indeed for 2 cable method corey.

As far as there being no difference between plugging guitar in directly to the amp or going through Axe-Fx or any pedal that does not have a true hard wire bypass, the impedance is most likely to mismatch and from my experience sounds quite different YMMV.

Won't hurt to try plugging your guitar into the Axe-Fx Rear input (setting I/O to Front) and thus bypassing the "special sauce" of the Axe-Fx. May actually make things worse but it will take about 1 minute to try and there is nothing to lose.
 
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