Helix Modeling Question

Line 6 is a large company that has lots of marketing and distribution which helps them sell lots of units. They are available in retail stores everywhere, and available for financing to which also adds convenience and affordability for many. I think that pretty much sums up why they sell so much.

Their amp modeling just isn't that good, IMO. That's the bottom line for me. Fractal's is the best by far IME. But honestly, I just don't like any of their stuff, other than my old M13 which I still use from time to time.
 
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For the price and what you're getting for its a good deal, It's only us Fractal dudes who feel the need to diss Line 6 constantly. In no small way I suspect to validate our purchase of a more expensive product.

While I agree that Validation bias exists...I think it's thrown around too loosely as it pertains to this community. Sure, you see that on occasion here, but I would say its a very small section of the membership here. Kemper catches its fair share as well at roughly the same cost.

I think the biggest differentiator is the relationship the user has with the product developer...hard to beat Fractal in that regard.
 
While I agree that Validation bias exists...I think it's thrown around too loosely as it pertains to this community. Sure, you see that on occasion here, but I would say its a very small section of the membership here. Kemper catches its fair share as well at roughly the same cost.

I think the biggest differentiator is the relationship the user has with the product developer...hard to beat Fractal in that regard.
+1 on that - lots of companies have been a brick wall on communication - I think there's signs of change though - Fractal had the right idea on this waay before the curve
 
How come Line 6, a major company who is owned by Yamaha, cannot make really good amp and effect algorithms like Fractal, which is a smaller company? Seems like with the amount of money that they bring in, their development team would have the tech and resources. The Helix stuff sounds ok, but nothing compared to the Fractal stuff.
They don't because they don't have to. Why should they push themselves when enough guitar players are satisfied with their crap algorithms? They cater to players who either can't tell the difference or simply don't have enough money for a quality product. It just shows that the free market works for everyone.
 
Both companies are very aware of their intended audiences and customers.

Line6 caters to the typical “buy a pedal and turn a knob for perfection” consumers, who don’t dive in and tweak at component levels, you know, the person that has multiple distortion and fuzz, echo and flanger and chorus, because they don’t know they can make a minor change to one and get the sound of the next.

Fractal, on the other hand, is for the person who will tweak components, maybe not themselves but will take it to their technician and discuss what is needed to fine-tune the sound. They target players who want a very realistic sound and behavior and will put in the time to get it.

I started with Line6 many years ago, way before the Helix line, and followed their technology through the biggest Pods, the amps, into the Helix Floor, sold it all, jumped to the AX8, switched back to my tube amps and (small) pedalboard, then tried a Helix Stomp, didn’t like it, switched to the Floor again, didn’t like it, again, and then, because the FM3 had been announced, got on the waitlist.

I have followed modelers and modeling a long time and the AX8 showed me how close Fractal was to being able to replicate 99% of what makes a great boutique or classic amp stand out. I knew the Axe-FX III was the state of the art and wanted to see what improvements the Ares software brought. And the FM3 blew me away, so much so that I bought a FX3 also, just for my at-home and always connected rig for silent practicing and recording (an important consideration at our house), and the FM3 with a FC6 is for when we can finally play out again.

The Fractal units are so good I sold my smaller pedal board and am selling my biggest boutique amp, because I don’t see a need for them. The other amps, also high-end boutiques, are possibly on the chopping block, along with the pedalboard.

The Helix sound was OK, as was its touch response and build, but Fractal has so much more depth and control, feel and response, and is so much more amp-like. The Helix didn’t inspire me, nor did it convince me I could replace my analog gear.

And that’s what I think the difference is.
Curious as to why you felt you needed the III for silent practice when you can just plug a headphone into the FM3.
 
Curious as to why you felt you needed the III for silent practice when you can just plug a headphone into the FM3.


When we're allowed to play out, I didn't want to tear down the FM3 rig, drag it somewhere, set it up, tear it down then repeat once I got home, then repeat everything again the next night - that wear and tear doesn't appeal to me, so I had a nice bag designed for the FM3 + FC6 where it lives when I'm not poking at it at home. Also, the FX3 is more capable and much better for having at home permanently connected.

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/fm3-fc-6-carry-bag-or-case-options.159382/post-2001115

Finally, it's because I could and it made sense to do so, at least to me. Fractal's modeling is at the point where it's easily good enough for me to sell my tube amps and rely on digital and recoup the price of both units by selling two of my amps and have money left over. I'm a big believer in having the right tools, not every tool, so the ones that aren't right are going away, and the ones that delight me are remaining.
 
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I think line 6 has the advantage of volume which causes them to come to mind first. They are a big player and active with a broad product range. And lets be honest, they make good products with value for money. They even made a number of products that have really made a lasting impression and they paved the way for many other developers/ manufacturers. Also, their goal is not the same as Fractal’s. Fractal is the Ferrari builder and line 6 the volkswagen builder. They aren’t even trying to build that ferrari, so when you compare them it isn’t fair The discussion if they could if they wanted to is only speculation and meaningless.

Line6 sells in stores, Fractal sells direct. To me that means that a Line6 unit has part of the cost of each sale going to the store or dealer and their advertising through the store plus in magazines, meaning less of the user's dollar goes toward funding future R&D. And, once there I have to believe that Fractal is dedicating more of the dollar toward R&D, which I believe I see when I compare the two units.

I read this message this morning and it helps explain some of it. The entire thread is pertinent I think.

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/affiliations.102186/post-1224533
 
Line6 sells in stores, Fractal sells direct. To me that means that a Line6 unit has part of the cost of each sale going to the store or dealer and their advertising through the store plus in magazines, meaning less of the user's dollar goes toward funding future R&D. And, once there I have to believe that Fractal is dedicating more of the dollar toward R&D, which I believe I see when I compare the two units.

I read this message this morning and it helps explain some of it. The entire thread is pertinent I think.

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/affiliations.102186/post-1224533

Well said. Your argument is a good addition to mine.

Harm
 
They will be caught up to where Fractal was. Fractal isn't going to sit still in that same time period, they're always moving forward.
Hopefully entirely correct. I hope that (unlike a lot of aging rock stars who tour for 30 years on tired fan-favorite best-of set lists from the 70's and 80's) Cliff, et al still have a lot of great ideas left, and are willing to bring in new blood with fresh ideas and most of all stay small because increased mass equals increased inertia.
 
lots of companies have been a brick wall on communication
When you hit that big corporation minimum size limit, engagement doesn't really pay. Marketing departments are run by tried and true formulas. They'll have "social media managers" who are basically doling out hte same stuff every day. The comment sections are open but no one is looking at the details. They'll maybe look at trends and then analyze for the low-cost-low hanging fruit and maybe add a feature or two per year to a product, call it all-new and improved or whatever, and stretch a product life cycle for 20 years...

... which is exactly what Yamaha is clearly doing with Line6.
 
When a small company sells to a large company, they take a massive paycheck and head for the door. The large company capitalizes on their purchase, but all the key talent is gone. So, no more real innovation. Just repackaging the same ole same ole until it no longer sells, at which point they discontinue the products and kill the brand.
Clearly, you have no idea what you're talking about. All the Line 6 guys who were there when Yamaha took over the company are still there and they've added the old Digitech guys to help with poly stuff.
 
Clearly, you have no idea what you're talking about. All the Line 6 guys who were there when Yamaha took over the company are still there and they've added the old Digitech guys to help with poly stuff.
He knows exactly what he's talking about. While it isn't a universal truth, history is rife with examples of exactly what he describes. Tascam/Gigastudio is one example. Gibson/Cakewalk is another. Digitech was effectively gutted of talent when Harmon bought them. Same with JBL. JBL Pro is a particularly sad story.
 
He knows exactly what he's talking about. While it isn't a universal truth, history is rife with examples of exactly what he describes. Tascam/Gigastudio is one example. Gibson/Cakewalk is another. Digitech was effectively gutted of talent when Harmon bought them. Same with JBL. JBL Pro is a particularly sad story.
He was specifically talking about Line 6. He was correct in the general sense.
 
When a small company sells to a large company, they take a massive paycheck and head for the door.
Unless you're privy to what's actually happening inside Line 6, that's a pretty unfair generalization to paint them with. Last I was watching closely (still have a Helix floor I haven't tried to sell), there were still very smart, experienced, and passionate people with their hands on the wheel.

Fractal gear can still be what it is without needing all other makers to be crappy.

Agreed though that that often happens; I was on board during Gibson's Opcode scuttling, which was a serious shame.
 
I enjoyed my Yamaha DGstomp & magicstomp. Their crunch & drive amp emulation was inspiring. And the fuzzes was worth a try: not a real analog fuzz, but reminds me the violin like of some elegant germanium one. When Yamaha and Line6 join, I had an hope: they trash the old L6 crap and give their product an evolution. Guess what the hell happened... :sweatsmile:
 
Clearly, you have no idea what you're talking about. All the Line 6 guys who were there when Yamaha took over the company are still there and they've added the old Digitech guys to help with poly stuff.
He was specifically talking about Line 6. He was correct in the general sense.
Unless you're privy to what's actually happening inside Line 6, that's a pretty unfair generalization to paint them with. Last I was watching closely (still have a Helix floor I haven't tried to sell), there were still very smart, experienced, and passionate people with their hands on the wheel.

Fractal gear can still be what it is without needing all other makers to be crappy.

Agreed though that that often happens; I was on board during Gibson's Opcode scuttling, which was a serious shame.
Yep. I know this is a safe space and I certainly give L6 sh!t elsewhere; but they still make some great products.
 
I can tell you why, from experience. It’s very difficult for large corporations to hire people who simultaneously know what they’re doing and give enough of a shit to put in the effort necessary. And even if such people are hired by accident, they’re smothered by bureaucracy and lack of funding. The solution to this is to have a visionary such as Steve Jobs or Cliff Chase run things, but such people are rarer than hen’s teeth. So you get a product that’s only good enough to sell to people who don’t know any better.
 
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