Helix Modeling Question

rrhoads17

Inspired
How come Line 6, a major company who is owned by Yamaha, cannot make really good amp and effect algorithms like Fractal, which is a smaller company? Seems like with the amount of money that they bring in, their development team would have the tech and resources. The Helix stuff sounds ok, but nothing compared to the Fractal stuff.
 
There is no real motivation to improve the product beyond the original design. Money and corporate politics, and more money. The philosophy of large companies is to try to get you, the consumer, to buy the latest and greatest new gadget, not improve on a product you already purchased.

There is no profit in that.
 
It's not just about how much resources you have, it's also about what your goals are.
Line 6 goal has probably always been making a good enough product for X price, Fractal goal is trying to recreate a perfect simulation of amps and fx regardless of final product price.

And add to this that most people can't hear the difference between a good enough sim and and an excellent sim
 
Both companies are very aware of their intended audiences and customers.

Line6 caters to the typical “buy a pedal and turn a knob for perfection” consumers, who don’t dive in and tweak at component levels, you know, the person that has multiple distortion and fuzz, echo and flanger and chorus, because they don’t know they can make a minor change to one and get the sound of the next.

Fractal, on the other hand, is for the person who will tweak components, maybe not themselves but will take it to their technician and discuss what is needed to fine-tune the sound. They target players who want a very realistic sound and behavior and will put in the time to get it.

I started with Line6 many years ago, way before the Helix line, and followed their technology through the biggest Pods, the amps, into the Helix Floor, sold it all, jumped to the AX8, switched back to my tube amps and (small) pedalboard, then tried a Helix Stomp, didn’t like it, switched to the Floor again, didn’t like it, again, and then, because the FM3 had been announced, got on the waitlist.

I have followed modelers and modeling a long time and the AX8 showed me how close Fractal was to being able to replicate 99% of what makes a great boutique or classic amp stand out. I knew the Axe-FX III was the state of the art and wanted to see what improvements the Ares software brought. And the FM3 blew me away, so much so that I bought a FX3 also, just for my at-home and always connected rig for silent practicing and recording (an important consideration at our house), and the FM3 with a FC6 is for when we can finally play out again.

The Fractal units are so good I sold my smaller pedal board and am selling my biggest boutique amp, because I don’t see a need for them. The other amps, also high-end boutiques, are possibly on the chopping block, along with the pedalboard.

The Helix sound was OK, as was its touch response and build, but Fractal has so much more depth and control, feel and response, and is so much more amp-like. The Helix didn’t inspire me, nor did it convince me I could replace my analog gear.

And that’s what I think the difference is.
 
You've got an exceptionally smart engineer with an unbelievable work ethic and tireless pursuit of perfection/excellence who is also running the company and is "all-in." That combination sometimes produces miraculous results that are hard for others to match, although having someone blazing a trail helps them too.
 
There are only so many truly brilliant engineers in the world, and even fewer are those who possess Cliff's unique skillset. Add to that his ethos, work ethic and incredibly high standards, and that he hasn't sold out. We're incredibly fortunate as a community. The rest is good people and perspiration, but without Cliff none of this would have happened. Thank you for all you've done, Cliff, it's so incredibly appreciated. You've allowed me, a very pedestrian musician, to enjoy playing more than I would have otherwise, and to make tone that my fellow musician friends are jealous of.
 
How come Line 6, a major company who is owned by Yamaha, cannot make really good amp and effect algorithms like Fractal, which is a smaller company? Seems like with the amount of money that they bring in, their development team would have the tech and resources. The Helix stuff sounds ok, but nothing compared to the Fractal stuff.

Speak for yourself but I really dig the effects that Line 6 has. There's a reason why the DL-4 has become a classic staple on many a pedal board. I keep a M5 in my rack just for the Sweep Echo and Particle Verb alone. If I can fault Fractal for anything is that almost all their attention is on amp modeling and almost no attention gets spent on their effects modeling. I don't know what is currently going on with the Axe III, as I only have the Axe II, but when it was still getting updates, it was almost exclusively to the amp models. And those sounded perfectly fine to me 10 Axe II firmware upgrades ago. I would have wanted some effects love instead. At least Line 6 included some new effects models in their Helix 3.0 upgrade.

And lets be serious here, Line 6 IS the current standard for amp modeling int the guitar industry. When all the guitar youtube channels and media talk about modeling, it's Line 6 first, Kemper 2nd and Fractal 3rd. And guys like Rick Beato, who has more amps in his studio then there are amp models in the Axe-FX (so it would seem), they're perfectly fine with the Helix. For the price and what you're getting for its a good deal, It's only us Fractal dudes who feel the need to diss Line 6 constantly. In no small way I suspect to validate our purchase of a more expensive product. Which is perfectly fine and has ungodly amounts of DSP, even the old Axe II, compared to the Helix and Kemper, allowing for longer effects chains, which I LOVE. But I reckon if you're an 'I'm just a guitar into a couple of effects into an amp kind of guy, with only a couple of presets', you could have just as easily settled for the Helix.
 
How come Line 6, a major company who is owned by Yamaha, cannot make really good amp and effect algorithms like Fractal, which is a smaller company? Seems like with the amount of money that they bring in, their development team would have the tech and resources. The Helix stuff sounds ok, but nothing compared to the Fractal stuff.

Because Fractal doesn't have to deal with this (aka corporate sclerosis):

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When a small company sells to a large company, they take a massive paycheck and head for the door. The large company capitalizes on their purchase, but all the key talent is gone. So, no more real innovation. Just repackaging the same ole same ole until it no longer sells, at which point they discontinue the products and kill the brand.
 
I have some line6 stuff (M5, PodHD, had Helix for a while). Ax3 is a step up in a lot of ways as expected but the Line6 stuff is still very good to my ears. I think L6 is still an innovative company and deserves respect in the modelling space. ie: HxStomp format is brilliant and Powercabs are a cool and unique product. My old Pod HD pre models + fx sound great into my 112 combo and the Pod makes an excellent midi controller for Axe3 also. It's great to have quality choices.
 
I don't know what is currently going on with the Axe III, as I only have the Axe II, but when it was still getting updates, it was almost exclusively to the amp models. And those sounded perfectly fine to me 10 Axe II firmware upgrades ago. I would have wanted some effects love instead. At least Line 6 included some new effects models in their Helix 3.0 upgrade.

...

But I reckon if you're an 'I'm just a guitar into a couple of effects into an amp kind of guy, with only a couple of presets', you could have just as easily settled for the Helix.

Your experience is long-in-the-tooth if you're not using current models on the current firmware. Fractal is always adding pedals and tweaking them, along with new amps. For instance, they fairly recently revamped the drive block with a whole new algorithm that is much better sounding and requires fewer CPU cycles. Read through the release notes for more information on what they're doing.

I'm very much that player; I actually prefer going without my pedal board and straight into the amp, but occasionally enjoy adding some "colors". And, having had three Helix (with the latest one still in the shop for over three months), I'll take Fractal any day. The depth and quality of the modeling surpasses Helix. But, I also have only boutique amps, I expect them to perform a certain way and the Helix didn't model that sort of nuanced sound.

Helix modeling has improved a lot from when it first came out, but even with that improvement it still doesn't meet my goals, whereas the Fractal modeling does. Fractal's effects are nothing they need apologize for either; Wandering through the factory presets and listening to what they can do shows they have capabilities not available in the Helix. Digging into the blocks really shows the flexibility and depth of the models, which surpass what Line6 exposes, and some of us want and expect that and are happy to have found it.
 
How many year from now will it take line6 to match the current Axe lll FW 15?
Excellent question.

They may never. Cliff is a very smart developer, who seems to have deep understanding of what's needed to efficiently model sound. I'm sure Line6 has their equivalent of Cliff, but Helix is getting to be an old platform whereas Fractal's FX3 is pretty new and just had a bump giving them a good platform for many more years of progress. Line6 just released a major version update for Helix, but I haven't had a chance to play with it because my Helix is in the shop still waiting for parts from Line6. (Who has canceled the order for the daughter board three times, had it go out of stock, etc. That they are having such problems delivering a part for a repair leads me to believe Yamaha isn't focusing on Line6, or at least on existing Helix customers.)

Yamaha might decide to toss a bunch of money at their R&D, but it takes a LOT of money to gain ground and it takes time to implement whatever changes are made. I think Yamaha/Line6 are content to go for the particular market they have, people who don't want to know too much about what makes their gear work and are looking for the less-expensive alternative.
 
I think line 6 has the advantage of volume which causes them to come to mind first. They are a big player and active with a broad product range. And lets be honest, they make good products with value for money. They even made a number of products that have really made a lasting impression and they paved the way for many other developers/ manufacturers. Also, their goal is not the same as Fractal’s. Fractal is the Ferrari builder and line 6 the volkswagen builder. They aren’t even trying to build that ferrari, so when you compare them it isn’t fair The discussion if they could if they wanted to is only speculation and meaningless.
 
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