Helix and the Law of unintended consequences!

AZG said:
I also currently have both. While the UI on the Helix is definitely easier to use, AxeEdit is much easier to use than the Helix UI. Furthermore some things are downright clunky on the Helix UI like rearranging effects if there is not an open space and moving things to path 2. After a month with Helix i've found some good tones, but nothing as good as the Axe's tones. The best tones I can get out of the Axe are sublime, the best tones I can get out of the Helix are good to maybe very good. I personally never adjust anything at a gig except for global EQ so the Axe's UI is of minimal impact in that environment. Personally, the Helix is getting returned. The compromise in tone is not worth it for a pretty UI. Although I will really miss the scribble strips and a few other cool features. The AX8 looks like a much better compromise to me.
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This was pretty much my experience as well. I was able to get some good sounds on the Helix, but nothing really compelling. The user interface was very good, although it has a few issues, but I'm not sure I would be changing all kinds of parameters during performance so not a deal maker. Some of the other features were nice to have (routing options, USB interface, Mic input & pre-amp), but I can get those thing in other ways. I just don't think the quality of the amp modeling puts it in the same league as the AXE or Kemper, and didn't think it was worth the price because of the amp modeling. With the AX8 being available for less (not counting Helix vendor discounts), I think it's a no-brainer to at least try out the AX8.
 
AZG said:
I really like some the delays on the Helix. I would actually like to duplicate the Adriatic and Elephant Man delays on the Axe, but I'm not sure how to do it.
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The Helix delays are excellent, IMO. Especially right out of the box. However, I now have the Fractal delays figured out and can get those to sound as good or even better. On par with Strymon. Takes tweaking. There are a few good threads on this already, but know that the EQ and mod sections are where to start. Narrow that EQ by doing generous amounts of high and low cut with a kind of peaky Q, like around 1.4. Add some mod in.

What I'd really like in the Axe is the ability to easily call this up like on the Helix. I guess I could resort to Global blocks, but I'm lazy. Give me a preset.
 
Karl Houseknecht said:
The Helix delays are excellent, IMO. Especially right out of the box. However, I now have the Fractal delays figured out and can get those to sound as good or even better. On par with Strymon. Takes tweaking. There are a few good threads on this already, but know that the EQ and mod sections are where to start. Narrow that EQ by doing generous amounts of high and low cut with a kind of peaky Q, like around 1.4. Add some mod in.

What I'd really like in the Axe is the ability to easily call this up like on the Helix. I guess I could resort to Global blocks, but I'm lazy. Give me a preset.
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I sent you a PM regarding this.
 
michaeltheyoung said:
I own both -- the AxeFX II, and the Helix. Agree that the Helix doesn't *quite* match the AxeFX in terms of tone, but for the gigging guitarist who needs a stage tool rather than a studio one, the trade-off is worth it for one simple reason: USER INTERFACE. I'm not a complete idiot, but in 4 years of owning an AxeFX, I barely managed to scratch the surface of what it can do--because it's impenetrable. Some of you are probably very technically minded, and that's great. AxeFX is an astounding tool for you. But I can say truthfully that I am already sounding WAY better live with the Helix than I ever did with the AxeFX, and it all boils down to how easy the thing is to use.

That being said, now that Helix has taught me a thing or two about signal path design, I'm tempted to go back into my AxeFX and see what I can do...but the ease-of-use case for Helix can't be overstated. For $1500, I have a powerful signal processor that--while it might not meet the high standards of the Axe community--fools a LOT of people into thinking it's a tube amp, and a remarkably intuitive control center for my entire rig. AxeFX demands $2k+ just for the box...and then, if you dare to use a controller other than Fractal's...bad times abound.

Like I said, I'm sure the engineers here can manage in the live setting with the AxeFX. But even given the [modest] tradeoff in sound...I doubt I'll go back.
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This is not inaccurate at all. I think people forget just how daunting this is for someone who is not used to it. When I first started, it was months before I felt comfortable in many aspects of tweaking. And even then, I wasn't sure what I was doing...just 'this sounds better when I do THIS'. It was quite a bit of trial and error that is extremely time consuming and disorienting. 'Controllers', 'Envelopes', even the basics of shunts/FX loop/routing are confusing for those who just want to play.

That being said, this community and the web has a huge library of resources to be able to help, so while the curve is steep, no one is on an island here. This shortens up the learning curve immensely. Also consider that in the early days of Fractal, the presets were basically one-offs to show off the capabilities of FX. Now they are a great starting point for anyone new (my JCM800 preset I use regularly is not far off what shipped from the factory.)

I see this as a natural difference between the Helix and Axe FX. This is NOT BAD. Line 6 used an intuitive UI as a selling point, and it's a pretty good one. It sounds pretty good, and it's simple to use

So I agree Fractal and Line6 are in different categories.
 
michaeltheyoung said:
I own both -- the AxeFX II, and the Helix. Agree that the Helix doesn't *quite* match the AxeFX in terms of tone, but for the gigging guitarist who needs a stage tool rather than a studio one, the trade-off is worth it for one simple reason: USER INTERFACE. I'm not a complete idiot, but in 4 years of owning an AxeFX, I barely managed to scratch the surface of what it can do--because it's impenetrable. Some of you are probably very technically minded, and that's great. AxeFX is an astounding tool for you. But I can say truthfully that I am already sounding WAY better live with the Helix than I ever did with the AxeFX, and it all boils down to how easy the thing is to use.
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If that were truly the case, that the nice UI and controls and ease of use makes it easier to sound better, then it's sure not working that way for me. I'm struggling with the Helix amp modeling. Sure I can put together a preset very quickly without a Helix editor, but for me it hasn't been that instant gratification thing I can get from the Axe where I add an amp, cab, reverb, and I'm done. Sometimes without even tweaking. Even with the Axe's UI and without an editor, I can have a tone that is light years beyond the Helix in far less time.

I've tweaked the Helix for hours on end next to my amps and the Axe and I still can't find something satisfying in terms of classic rock to high gain Marshall. Lots of low end flub, very little high end clarity. Sure, through a pair of near fields at low volume I can come up with an amp model on both that sound very close, but once I try that at a gigging volume, it falls apart for me. It's obviously something I'm doing wrong, but I can't for the life of me figure out what it is.

Anyway, my point is that a fancy UI only goes so far. Don't get me wrong, great effects on that unit. Amp modeling, though? Kind of the core function of an amp modeler.
 
Karl Houseknecht said:
The Helix delays are excellent, IMO. Especially right out of the box. However, I now have the Fractal delays figured out and can get those to sound as good or even better. On par with Strymon. Takes tweaking. There are a few good threads on this already, but know that the EQ and mod sections are where to start. Narrow that EQ by doing generous amounts of high and low cut with a kind of peaky Q, like around 1.4. Add some mod in.

What I'd really like in the Axe is the ability to easily call this up like on the Helix. I guess I could resort to Global blocks, but I'm lazy. Give me a preset.
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just save blocks, or use templates. i wouldn't use global blocks for delays because whatever you changes you make will be saved globally...which could really mess up presets if you use song specific presets.

i do use global blocks for amps and cabs, though....lifesaver there.
 
Even back to my Ultra when firmware 4.0 was the new katz azz and these boxes came with 128 presets there were so many excellent, strong factory presets that my experience has been tweaking and building presets from scratch is an option, not a necessity. New users don't need to fear the complexity of these units.

I've built presets from scratch, enjoyed it, learned from it, but truly my go to clean is a factory preset with a bit of reverb backed off and my lead is a stock factory preset. The Axe FX is as complex, or simple, as you want it to be.
 
jlynnb1 said:
just save blocks, or use templates. i wouldn't use global blocks for delays because whatever you changes you make will be saved globally...
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I could always call up and then unlink the global block before making a change and saving.

What do you mean by templates? Is there a function I've overlooked?
 
michaeltheyoung said:
I own both -- the AxeFX II, and the Helix. Agree that the Helix doesn't *quite* match the AxeFX in terms of tone, but for the gigging guitarist who needs a stage tool rather than a studio one, the trade-off is worth it for one simple reason: USER INTERFACE. I'm not a complete idiot, but in 4 years of owning an AxeFX, I barely managed to scratch the surface of what it can do--because it's impenetrable. Some of you are probably very technically minded, and that's great. AxeFX is an astounding tool for you. But I can say truthfully that I am already sounding WAY better live with the Helix than I ever did with the AxeFX, and it all boils down to how easy the thing is to use.

That being said, now that Helix has taught me a thing or two about signal path design, I'm tempted to go back into my AxeFX and see what I can do...but the ease-of-use case for Helix can't be overstated. For $1500, I have a powerful signal processor that--while it might not meet the high standards of the Axe community--fools a LOT of people into thinking it's a tube amp, and a remarkably intuitive control center for my entire rig. AxeFX demands $2k+ just for the box...and then, if you dare to use a controller other than Fractal's...bad times abound.

Like I said, I'm sure the engineers here can manage in the live setting with the AxeFX. But even given the [modest] tradeoff in sound...I doubt I'll go back.
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Thing is though- the Helix is in direct competition with the AX8. The only difference I can see on the face of it is the lac k of expression pedal from the AX8. Price point there similar with no need for a controller.

In that context doesn't come down to interface v tone????

Not played a Helix so cant connect as such - but from this thread alone thats what is seems to be down to.
 
Karl Houseknecht said:
I could always call up and then unlink the global block before making a change and saving.

What do you mean by templates? Is there a function I've overlooked?
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yeah man, you can save a set up that you use often as a template, then when building tones out instead of going from scratch you can just call up that template, tweak and save. i believe you play worship stuff as well, so you could save a basic worship template then call it up for each now song you tweak for.

have you tried saving individual blocks to call up when you need them?
 
Dealmaker said:
So I had the Helix for a few weeks and tried it hoping it could be an all in one floor mount "quick gig" solution....for those sort of multi-band gigs where you have limited set up and tear-down time.

I persevered with it for a couple of weeks - but it simply wasn't for me - couldn't get the tones I wanted or liked, though it was a bit fizzy, didn't like the installed delays or lack of modulated delays, didn't like the integrated expression pedal (I like sprung pedals with auto-engage) and I thought it was badly executed in places......so long story short it went back...and I will wait for my AX8.

So back to the AXE FXII - OH.....MY......GOD!!!.......you forget what sublime tones this unit can make! I was playing until 2am last night - and I have discovered and re-disovered a load of amazing presets and tones....as well as downloading some fantastic presets from the Axe-Change. When you get used to a unit and have it set up for your usual gigs and sets - then you become complacent, you sometimes cease exploring and seeing what the AXE is capable of.......I realised that I haven't even been scratching the surface of the FXII's capabilities....and it took two weeks with the Helix to make me realise this! Thank you Line 6!!! and a big thanks to Cliff for making such an awesome unit. If the AX8 makes the exact same tones then its a sure fire winner for me - and I will have the ultimate package of solutions with the FXII for home, practice, messing about and making tones, as well as larger gigs, and the AX8 for delivering them at smaller gigs!
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I have to agree....
I have the Axe II and the XL+.... I've really never been 100% happy with the tone and another thing that aggravates me is the MFC101....once you have your FX layout...you are stuck to it. On the Helix, anything can be mapped anywhere and that's awesome....what once was a chorus switch can now be a flanger....I like that feature. On my MFC, I don' t like being stuck. What a bummer...I hope they read this and create a better way to assign FX.
 
Shock410 said:
another thing that aggravates me is the MFC101....once you have your FX layout...you are stuck to it.
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that was standard for a controller when the MFC was designed. things have changed in just a few short years, and a few other controllers now have flexible assignments per preset and with pages. it almost necessitates the need of screens though, because it would be a chore to remember what switch does what without it (assuming different switches per preset for example). i use an MMGT by RJM and it is more flexible than the MFC.

for many people, the MFC is the best choice. for some, another controller could be a better choice. it depends on what you need though. look what Fractal has done for the Amp Modeler and FX unit. there is no doubt they could do something phenomenal with foot controllers too, but there are only so many hours on the day.
 
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