heaphones vs FRFR spekers

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hebaton

Member
I suppose this has probably been discussed before but please help me here. I am now to modelers and just got an FM3.THere are amny presets I find excellent in heaphones that sound crappy ounce going trough a PA system or a line 6 powercab. THIs is very confusing to me. IS there something I need to do so there is less disparity ? I seem to perceive that the more processing ( IE reverbs delays and other effects ) the more difference there is between live sound and Heaphones.
I am using high quelity audio headphones ( 500$ /pair )
 
Headphones should be very close to flat response as are good studio monitors. Factory presets should sound really good on both... good P.A. speakers should be close to flat response, but depending on the room, there may need to be adjustments made. A good FRFR speaker also should be close to flat response but I will tell you that I owned a Powercab and didn't like it at all. I could never get it to sound that good. I sold it. I bought the Friedman ASC-10 and they sound much more like a real guitar cab and sound great especially for stage monitors for the guitar (and I have used them for vocals too). Some think they are too much in the low end but there is a 100hz filter on them that fixes that, but there are other great FRFR cabs made for modelers out there as well. What the recommendation is: to dial your sound with studio monitors/headphones (prefer monitors), and send that to front of house because a good P.A. speaker "should" be FRFR in theory, then use output 2 to go to stage monitor (if you are using this in live band situation). There is an output 2 eq in the unit that you can change your stage sound without changing the FOH or the preset you are using. Also, you might try Austin Buddy presets as they are already dialed in at stage volume and sound awesome and they are well worth the money, especially if you are having trouble dialing things in.
 
I use three different types of headphones for working on the modeler and am told I get a good live sound. Things I recommend:
  1. Learn to trust the factory settings for factory presets. They’re already equalized to sound good at stage volume by Fractal using pro-quality rigs. Listen to them with headphones at a comfortably loud volume then switch to the speakers and note the difference. You’re trying to get a mental fix on the difference between the two different sounds so you can make rough estimates when wearing the headphones that will carry through to using speakers.
  2. Save a factory preset you like to a new slot. Create a GEQ or PEQ block and set up an EQ compensation curve to flatten the headphone’s response. Save a copy to your block library. Put the block just before the OUT 1 block in the preset and use that when adjusting the sound, but realize that it’s only going to get you close to the sound you want, not all the way there. Take a break every 30-40 minutes to let your ears and brain rest to help avoid aural fatigue. When you are happy with the sound remove the block from the preset because it is skewing the EQ from how it will sound without headphones. Use the block for critical listening when editing but don’t use it all the time because you need to have that ability to mentally compensate. Also, eventually you will forget to remove or disable the block and wonder why the preset sounds horrible live.
  3. Connect to your speakers and turn up the volume to as loud as you would have the rig in a band situation. Adjust for tone in the AMP and CAB blocks. The EQ should be reasonably close if you did the previous steps. Volume is important, as is noticing the difference between the sound of the headphones and the speakers at volume, so you can estimate the final sound when using the headphones in the future.
The best thing is to use speakers at reasonably loud volume when editing, but sometimes that’s not possible so we have to learn how to compensate in our heads then do a final tweak. The Fletcher-Munson Effect is important to understand.

Try using the search feature for the forum and the Wiki. 99% of the questions people ask have been asked before so you can save yourself time by digging in instead of asking and then waiting who knows how long for a response. For instance “Headphones and IEMs” and https://forum.fractalaudio.com/search/925809/?q=Headphones&o=date.
 
Headphones are closer to your ears than speakers. There’s no air between the headphone and your ear like with speakers. That air diffuses sound, and room reflections with speakers change the tone as well.

There’s no quick answer to this question and it affects every type of audio not just an axe-fx.

Add to that the different EQ of headphones vs other headphones vs various speakers changing the tone as well.

No different than your favorite real amp sounding great in one gig room vs sounding horrible at the next gig room with the same settings.

Bus/Master EQ goes a long way. Pro sound engineers rarely change channel EQ for their touring bands and mostly adjust the master EQ to adapt to the room/speakers.

It’s just how sound works. The Axe (or anything else) is creating a consistent tone all the time, but the playback devices and rooms are what change the sound. A master EQ is the solution, but powered speakers and most mixers don’t have EQ per send/bus. It’s why I only use digital mixers with that feature.

I never EQ my channels once they’re set, only the bus EQs. Different settings for my headphone/IEM send, studio monitors, mains and stage monitors. I save different stage and main EQs per gig and just call them up when I get to the venue again. That’s the best way to handle it.
 
hebaton said:
I suppose this has probably been discussed before but please help me here. I am now to modelers and just got an FM3.THere are amny presets I find excellent in heaphones that sound crappy ounce going trough a PA system or a line 6 powercab. THIs is very confusing to me. IS there something I need to do so there is less disparity ? I seem to perceive that the more processing ( IE reverbs delays and other effects ) the more difference there is between live sound and Heaphones.
I am using high quelity audio headphones ( 500$ /pair )
Click to expand...
EDIT: I posted the wrong thread below before but have corrected it

I have found that Powered Studio Monitors are the closest to sounded identical to my headphones. However, with PA/FRFR speakers/powercab, etc., they do sound different at lower volumes. They really need to be very loud to get the blanketed sound to go away and brighten up. Check out this thread for how someone found out how to eq for 8" headrush FRFR speakers:
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/flattening-the-headrush-curve.175796/

But yes, you are right.. they do sound different, especially at different volumes and need to be EQ'd to match
 
The transient response dynamics in headphones vs FRFR speaker cabs at the same listening level is going to be different. Add to that the room acoustics and the listening position. I am trying to get closer to the FM3 headphone sound without blasting my ears with a FRFR type cab setup. Probably not going to easily happen at lower levels. Most persons talk about the differences in the frequency response but the transient response in those frequencies is just as important. Any more thoughts?
 
Save time and trouble I say. How? Keep it simple. Discrete steps. You are new! no shame in that.
1. Learn the tool first and how to use it to get the sounds you like to one kind of output. Really nail it before you...
2. Then try to build different presets for different output types - real cab, headphones, IR etc.
3. Don't try to make a master preset that has it all, that's hard in the beginning! You've got plenty of slots on the FM3.
4. Make different presets for the different output types - headphones, speakers, etc.

I have presets for FRFR and presets for when I use real cabs. I even make presets for different guitars as they load the pre-amp differently - active vs passive pups. There are other ways to do this, this isn't the "best" way but its a good way to start and not get swamped.

Learn what you like, how to get it, and then its easy to adapt to changing rooms, and changing speakers, etc. That is a life skill that will serve you well thru firmware updates and other products.
 
Headphones are stereo , if your just using one frfr then its mono.. I still prefer using frfr over headphones (in my case senn hd650s)
 
Try a little EQ on the PA mixer and see if that dials it in. Ideally it shouldn't take much. FRFR is not a standard and all speakers will be a little different.
 
Ok, thanks for the responses. However I do not think most still have got the meaning of my original post. That is the difference in transient response over frequencies and other factors that give the headphone experience vs speaker(s) in a room environment a different experience and sound. Even if you have a two cab stereo FRFR system it is not going to be the same. I have read many posts on this forum that have said I wish I could get the sound I hear from my cab/speaker to be more what I hear from my headphones. You might get it closer with dialing in various parameters of the preset or adjusting the room acoustics or cab/speaker system but in reality not going to be the same.
 
So...yes, speakers in a room are going to be different from headphones, especially something like the PowerCab that's supposed to work (more or less) like a guitar cab.

As far as something that sounds good in headphones sounding terrible in the PA....that sounds like a problem with the sound guy to me.

But...FWIW...since I really wrapped my head around it and tried again...I'm almost to the point of saying I prefer IEMs for basically everything except passive ambient sound and the TV.
 
Nsurround said:
...I do not think most still have got the meaning of my original post. That is the difference in transient response over frequencies and other factors that give the headphone experience vs speaker(s) in a room environment a different experience and sound.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure what you mean by “transient response over frequencies.” Transients are high-frequency events.

The main differences between speakers and headphones are:

- With speakers, you’re listening in a room that’s many feet in all dimensions, with both hard and soft surfaces; with headphones, the “room” is only one cubic inch or less, and all the surfaces are soft.

- With headphones, your left ear will never hear what the right speaker is doing, and vice-versa.
 
Rex said:
- With headphones, your left ear will never hear what the right speaker is doing, and vice-versa.
Click to expand...
HRTF Crossfeed solves that problem.

I'm with you on not understanding the comments about transient response. Headphones/IEMs are generally tighter and very often less distorted than speakers...which means they can be more true to the source unless you're playing waaaay too loud. Except for the spatial thing.
 
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marsonic said:
HRTF Crossfeed solves that problem.
Click to expand...
It solves the head-related part of the problem, but not the room-related part. Example: let's say there's a reflective surface ten feet to your left. That will send sound to your left ear from the right speaker, with different EQ and a different arrival time. HRTF doesn't address that.
 
Rex said:
It solves the head-related part of the problem, but not the room-related part. Example: let's say there's a reflective surface ten feet to your left. That will send sound to your left ear from the right speaker, with different EQ and a different arrival time. HRTF doesn't address that.
Click to expand...

Correct.

That being said, I never want that in a monitor. So, it fixes it as though the speakers were in a perfect room.
 
marsonic said:
Correct.

That being said, I never want that in a monitor. So, it fixes it as though the speakers were in a perfect room.
Click to expand...
Actually, it "fixes" it as though the speakers were in a room of infinite dimensions. Most sound designers would consider such a room less than perfect. :)
 
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