Happy Moon landing anniversary!

Anyone with a decent telescope should be able to spot the things left behind by various missions.

Unfortunately, that’s not possible at this point. Even if you were to point the Hubble at those objects they would resolve at less than pixel...making anything gathered effectively useless for that purpose.
 
There are no opinions on scientific and technical facts. Just stupidity to neglect them.

Sure, opinion was not the best choice.

But, at one point the earth being flat was considered a “technical fact”...and how do our “facts” on black holes hold up after the news of a couple of weeks ago? The list of knowledge revision could go for days.

Seems to me the best course, if knowledge and not agenda, is your goal...is to continually consider things that challenge your existing base. Just my opinion of course...
 
Unfortunately, that’s not possible at this point. Even if you were to point the Hubble at those objects they would resolve at less than pixel...making anything gathered effectively useless for that purpose.

Ah. Too bad. So this seems to be another urban legend (being able to spot the leftovers from earth).
 
Ah. Too bad. So this seems to be another urban legend (being able to spot the leftovers from earth).

There has been flyby imaging by the LRO (linked earlier in this thread)...although I doubt skeptics will view that as credible given the ease of image manipulation these days.

Edit: perhaps when Elon sends his moon vacationers out, we can get another source.
 
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Not being a scientist, somethings just don't look right with the moon landing and the 9/11 events. Lack of modern time (manned) return moon visits and the recorded data misplaced is somewhat odd imo. That doesn't mean it didn't happen but there are oddities?
 
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No being a scientist, somethings just don't look right with the moon landing and the 9/11 events. Lack of modern time (manned) return moon visits and the recorded data misplaced is somewhat odd imo. That doesn't mean it didn't happen but there are oddities?

Yeah oddities for sure. Theres two things I have trouble with re 9/11 but they aren’t enough to be conclusive to me.

Re Apollo: Let’s assume you successfully pull off the Apollo 11 hoax an achieve your goal....why six more launches and five landings over the next three years? Seems like a lot of risk for what gain? Wouldn’t it be easier to find an out with something from the 11 mission... say van allen belts and crew safety? You achieve your goal and no need to perpetuate your risk.
 
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There has been flyby imaging by the LRO (linked earlier in this thread)...although I doubt skeptics will view that as credible given the ease of image manipulation these days.

Edit: perhaps when Elon sends his moon vacationers out, we can get another source.

Not to mention that there is a move afoot by the U.S. within the United Nations to keep the sanctity of Tranquility Base when others eventually arrive..
 
Really?

I don’t see anyone being unreasonable here. It’s ok to have different opinions.
Thanks for your reply and explanation. The points you brought up regarding the lunar landing were some that I haven’t heard until now. I will have to look over some of the info and see if the evidence corroborates. Some good points to be sure. I have never heard the light and shadow length explained in that way and I can not corroborate because I can’t readily get to the moon to see if its true but...more thought and discovery.

As far as your explanation of the 911 I included this video that shows the first building falling. It appears to me that the building fell and exploded at the top and collapsed from the top down. This makes sense to me because of its height and the necessity to bring it down straight as not to do as much damage as it might have caused coming down as a tree might fall. As for discussion of jet fuel, thermite, melting point of steel, history of steel building collapses in fire etc, I would say that is the discussion not the starting point of motivation for. Motivation for is far too unknowable to start with.

My starting place of understanding something is:

I see something with my eyes that looks funny or unreal
I decide to investigate if what i’m seeing matches the official story or not using the best evidence I can draw from
I decide the plausibility of varying accounts.

Starting with the official story or the alternate (hoax) to base my understanding I think shortcuts curiosity.

Someone said earlier with regards to their perception of what they saw on the television as “Something you never forgot how cool it was” The truth be told “seeing is believing” aint so anymore. We just put on App on our phone that makes my face look like I’m 20 years older than I really am. It’s so believable I can’t tell the difference. The app was free and it took 15 sec to put it on my little phone and now I have the picture.

thanks for keeping the discussion civil. I don’t have any skin in this game other than learning how other people perceive their world to better perceive mine.


 
Thanks for your reply and explanation. The points you brought up regarding the lunar landing were some that I haven’t heard until now. I will have to look over some of the info and see if the evidence corroborates. Some good points to be sure. I have never heard the light and shadow length explained in that way and I can not corroborate because I can’t readily get to the moon to see if its true but...more thought and discovery.

As far as your explanation of the 911 I included this video that shows the first building falling. It appears to me that the building fell and exploded at the top and collapsed from the top down. This makes sense to me because of its height and the necessity to bring it down straight as not to do as much damage as it might have caused coming down as a tree might fall. As for discussion of jet fuel, thermite, melting point of steel, history of steel building collapses in fire etc, I would say that is the discussion not the starting point of motivation for. Motivation for is far too unknowable to start with.

My starting place of understanding something is:

I see something with my eyes that looks funny or unreal
I decide to investigate if what i’m seeing matches the official story or not using the best evidence I can draw from
I decide the plausibility of varying accounts.

Starting with the official story or the alternate (hoax) to base my understanding I think shortcuts curiosity.

Someone said earlier with regards to their perception of what they saw on the television as “Something you never forgot how cool it was” The truth be told “seeing is believing” aint so anymore. We just put on App on our phone that makes my face look like I’m 20 years older than I really am. It’s so believable I can’t tell the difference. The app was free and it took 15 sec to put it on my little phone and now I have the picture.

thanks for keeping the discussion civil. I don’t have any skin in this game other than learning how other people perceive their world to better perceive mine.




I share your concern with how advancing tech is altering perception... deep fake tech, and it's implication's, is truly frightening.

My starting place of understanding is logic, and I see everything as binary...If you have ever done those deductive reasoning logic puzzles, that's pretty much a diagram of how my thought process works. However, I am aware that there are fifteen other personality types that don't operate that way and the issues that creates in trying to exchange ideas/information. Having said that, here's how I would consider the tower collapse:

Things we should be able to agree on:
Both collapse's originated at the point of impact.
Both collapses' were from the top down, and above the impact point.
The south tower, although struck 17 minutes later... collapsed 29 minutes prior to the north tower.
The south tower was struck roughly 26 floors lower than the North (Key Point)
9:37; 22 minutes prior to collapse, occupant's of the 105 floor (south) reported to 911 floors below them failing. PD aerial unit made similar report's at same time.

So let's look at the truthers point's:

No steel building has collapsed due to fire...even one's that burned significantly longer. True statement. However they also fail to correlate that none of those burning buildings were severely structurally compromised prior to the fire even starting. Further, the tower's where somewhat unique in that the outer structure bore the majority of the load. Non starter and irrelevant point.

Jet fuel can't burn at a high enough temperature to melt steel. True statement (in lab conditions). But that assumes that the steel, which is now carrying significantly more load than designed for (why the south collapsed first), needs to reach "melting point" to become structurally compromised. Steel is malleable after all. But let's assume for the moment that Jet fuel and the resulting fire didn't contribute to the structural failure as they would suggest...then it would follow that something else did...and invariably, this is how we arrive at thermite and the controlled demo theory..the flaws in which, I outlined in my previous post, although I would add the floors collapsing 15 minutes prior to the building calls into further question the method of controlled demolition. To suggest thermite, would require us to believe in a vast preplanned coordinated event over quite some time, which, in turn, reveal a very limited number of motivation's and groups capable.

So, in the end your left with two possible outcomes:

1. A vast time consuming coordinated effort Motivated by one of two things: ( we can eliminate mass murder as the groups capable of pulling this off wouldn't benefit from it and there are much easier and softer targets), Financial gain...again, much easier ways to achieve the same goal... so we are left with false flag, as the truthers suggest, usually citing the Northwoods documents as precedent. The chosen method is to perform a controlled demo, on two of the largest, most visible buildings in the world, in perhaps the most visible city in the world, and to do so using materials and methods never before (or since) used...and we are relying on pilots who have never before flown 767's, in situations of extreme stress and flying at speeds outside the design limit of the aircraft, that even veteran pilots would struggle with... to hit two different buildings exactly in the area we have prewired to detonate...and they survive lengthy fires only to collapse at the impact point, and other than some noob detonating a couple of floors early (because jet fuel can't deform steel so it couldn't have caused the floors collapse)...everything goes off without a hitch? And if your intent is to collapse the building's why wait once the planes hit?

or,

2. Terrorist's flew two 767's with roughly 10,000lbs of fuel at 400 miles an hour into building's that were designed to withstand impact's from airliner's of the day (707) with low fuel loads at approach speeds in bad weather (B25 Empire State building)...the resulting impact taking out significant load bearing structure, which caused the load to be re distributed beyond design, all the while overloaded steel is is enveloped in a raging fire..which combined with additional load, eventually collapses at the exact point of impact.

In the video you posted (thanks) what appears to be an explosion just prior to collapse is the compression of the floors above squeezing the fire out of an otherwise sealed building...like if you pushed the plunger of a syringe that had a large gash in the side of it..or closing your grill lid too fast.

For me, the elephant in the room is the top down collapse...without an explanation for that unprecedented and illogical event...it renders the why and how moot. And notice that the truther's never address what should be the most obvious clue...no way an engineer doesn't know that..yet they don't address it because it doesn't support their agenda. I have issues with other 9/11 events but not the towers. And would not rule out prior knowledge ala Pearl Harbor.

Again sorry for the length...and I'm certainly open to any view I haven't considered.
 
Whatever the cause of 911 it was a tragic violent act. two 110 story buildings collapsed in less than 10 seconds killing thousands of people senselessly.
 
The entire Apollo program is a watershed event for the doom of our species.

There was a time when we banded together to accomplish astonishing goals. Educated people worked hard to better themselves everyday to accomplish a great goal that was simply unattainable at its outset.

When man set foot on the moon there wasn’t a single person on earth that thought they were watching an elaborate hoax.

Now the planet is infested with millions who have convinced themselves that the world was tricked.

Our average intelligence as a species has hit a new low and is still dropping at an frightening rate.

I shudder to think that there are those who walk amongst us that can believe we never went to the moon despite:

1. Over 400,000 people worked on the Apollo program including my father. What the hell were they all building? I guess they all built a working spacecraft capable of actually traveling to the moon but they decided not to use it? Eight times? My father built the emergency launch abort tower for Apollo. It worked. It was real. I saw static tests of the rocket in the Utah desert as a child. Thankfully it was never used in an abort scenario but it did jettison the command modules protective cowling on every launch.

2. Why would anyone on their third fake lunar landing mission stage a fake in flight emergency? Especially one that caused the primary goal of the mission to be scrubbed.

3. To this day we still bounce a laser off a reflecting mirror that the Apollo 11 crew left on the surface of the moon. It is real. It is there.

4. We have photos of every lunar landing site that show tracks and artifacts that were left behind.

5. The technology needed to fake the videos and photos didn’t exist at the time.

The list goes on, but this information is useless to those who need it most.

You can’t fix stupid.
 
Whatever the cause of 911 it was a tragic violent act. two 110 story buildings collapsed in less than 10 seconds killing thousands of people senselessly.


No doubt something we can all agree all.

BTW, your peavy disclaimer in your sig makes me laugh every time I see it.
 
The entire Apollo program is a watershed event for the doom of our species.

There was a time when we banded together to accomplish astonishing goals. Educated people worked hard to better themselves everyday to accomplish a great goal that was simply unattainable at its outset.

When man set foot on the moon there wasn’t a single person on earth that thought they were watching an elaborate hoax.

Now the planet is infested with millions who have convinced themselves that the world was tricked.

Our average intelligence as a species has hit a new low and is still dropping at an frightening rate.

I shudder to think that there are those who walk amongst us that can believe we never went to the moon despite:

1. Over 400,000 people worked on the Apollo program including my father. What the hell were they all building? I guess they all built a working spacecraft capable of actually traveling to the moon but they decided not to use it? Eight times? My father built the emergency launch abort tower for Apollo. It worked. It was real. I saw static tests of the rocket in the Utah desert as a child. Thankfully it was never used in an abort scenario but it did jettison the command modules protective cowling on every launch.

2. Why would anyone on their third fake lunar landing mission stage a fake in flight emergency? Especially one that caused the primary goal of the mission to be scrubbed.

3. To this day we still bounce a laser off a reflecting mirror that the Apollo 11 crew left on the surface of the moon. It is real. It is there.

4. We have photos of every lunar landing site that show tracks and artifacts that were left behind.

5. The technology needed to fake the videos and photos didn’t exist at the time.

The list goes on, but this information is useless to those who need it most.

You can’t fix stupid.

That must have been super cool for your dad (Morton Thiokol?) talk about looking forward to going to work. I seen the test shots with little Joe boosters... way cool.
 
That must have been super cool for your dad (Morton Thiokol?) talk about looking forward to going to work. I seen the test shots with little Joe boosters... way cool.

Yeah, my Dad was badge #14 at Thiokol. He was basically out in the desert with a shovel when they started the rocket plant.

I was so psyched by the little joe tests that I had an Estes model rocket of that one.

The coolest tests were the static ones. They tied them down and lit them up. They would roar and shake the ground but never got further away. I think that’s where I developed a love of very loud music!

When I got my Eagle Scout award my dad got the crew of Apollo 15 to show up at my award ceremony and banquet. That was extremely cool!

My Dad finally got a his thumbprint in space as the Pam D2 program manager.

His space motors have launched numerous communication satellites as well as missions to Venus, Mars, Jupiter and most recently the New Horizons mission to Pluto and beyond.

I miss him terribly.

I watched the real time replay of Apollo 11 EVA yesterday and it really brought back wonderful memories of watching the television broadcast with him 50 years ago.
 
Yeah, my Dad was badge #14 at Thiokol. He was basically out in the desert with a shovel when they started the rocket plant.

I was so psyched by the little joe tests that I had an Estes model rocket of that one.

The coolest tests were the static ones. They tied them down and lit them up. They would roar and shake the ground but never got further away. I think that’s where I developed a love of very loud music!

When I got my Eagle Scout award my dad got the crew of Apollo 15 to show up at my award ceremony and banquet. That was extremely cool!

My Dad finally got a his thumbprint in space as the Pam D2 program manager.

His space motors have launched numerous communication satellites as well as missions to Venus, Mars, Jupiter and most recently the New Horizons mission to Pluto and beyond.

I miss him terribly.

I watched the real time replay of Apollo 11 EVA yesterday and it really brought back wonderful memories of watching the television broadcast with him 50 years ago.

Great story! What an amazing collection of memories you must have, in addition to a unique perspective of history...your a lucky man.

I tried to get George W. to attend my son's Eagle ceremony (He's local after all) but his office informed me that he was unavailable.

What a testament to your father, that the 15 crew thought enough of him to accommodate that occasion...touching.
 
Jet fuel can't burn at a high enough temperature to melt steel. True statement (in lab conditions). But that assumes that the steel, which is now carrying significantly more load than designed for (why the south collapsed first), needs to reach "melting point" to become structurally compromised.

I didn't want to read all this and didn't even want to reply, but I noticed this part and just wanted to write that the conspiracy theorists have no clue about steel or ferroconcrete. Most steels' maximum load is already reduced significantly at 650°F, most steels cannot even carry it's own weight anymore at 1300°F. And these temperature are far from melting temperatures.

And it's definitely not true that no steel building has collapsed due to fire. Do we have fire fighters here? ;) This fact is part of their training
 
There are no opinions on scientific and technical facts. Just stupidity to neglect them.

Science is very often not fact, only theories and observations that match those theories until new theories and new observations come along. Stating that science = facts is as bad as pseudo science talking about flat earths, moonlanding hoaxes, UFO's, Atlantis, anti-vaxinations and you name it. The one thing that science has in its advantage is that when new observations emerge that do not fit established theory a new theory will emerge that will become the new scientific consensus. Even when the adepts of the old theory put up a mighty resistance. Put it very simple, in science observations drive theory, we observe X, therefore Y is the case. Whereas in in pseudo science theory drives observations. We believe Y therefore we rationalize that X happened.

The entire Apollo program is a watershed event for the doom of our species.

There was a time when we banded together to accomplish astonishing goals. Educated people worked hard to better themselves everyday to accomplish a great goal that was simply unattainable at its outset.

When man set foot on the moon there wasn’t a single person on earth that thought they were watching an elaborate hoax.

Now the planet is infested with millions who have convinced themselves that the world was tricked.

Our average intelligence as a species has hit a new low and is still dropping at an frightening rate.

I shudder to think that there are those who walk amongst us that can believe we never went to the moon despite:

1. Over 400,000 people worked on the Apollo program including my father. What the hell were they all building? I guess they all built a working spacecraft capable of actually traveling to the moon but they decided not to use it? Eight times? My father built the emergency launch abort tower for Apollo. It worked. It was real. I saw static tests of the rocket in the Utah desert as a child. Thankfully it was never used in an abort scenario but it did jettison the command modules protective cowling on every launch.

2. Why would anyone on their third fake lunar landing mission stage a fake in flight emergency? Especially one that caused the primary goal of the mission to be scrubbed.

3. To this day we still bounce a laser off a reflecting mirror that the Apollo 11 crew left on the surface of the moon. It is real. It is there.

4. We have photos of every lunar landing site that show tracks and artifacts that were left behind.

5. The technology needed to fake the videos and photos didn’t exist at the time.

The list goes on, but this information is useless to those who need it most.

You can’t fix stupid.

It's not a question of stupid. Stupid implies that there are people who are smart and that there are people who not smart. And that only the former are intelligent enough to see the truth and the latter are not. Which usually leads to the next conclusion that we would all be better off if the smart people made the decisions and the not so smart people should just bugger off and keep quiet. For their own good. And that is how we usually end up with very bad dictatorships. And throughout history hasn't it been people who were considered very smart to make some of the most stupid/catastrophic decisions?

I assume that it is possible to look at the same reality and come to different conclusions. And what seems completely rational and logical to me and you may be utterly alien and incomprehensible to others. The word common sense gets banded about like it actually exists, except it really doesn't exist. In a way reality doesn't even exist, we humans all live in a tiny bubble created in our own mind where our brain makes sense of the world that our senses observe. But its still only a recreation of that world. We are all the star of a movie that plays in our own mind. So what makes perfect sense to us, is utterly alien to others.
 
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