Guitar cab vs FRFR?

After years of using my Matrix CFR12's as a backline, I've recently ordered a 4x12 cab for the new band I'm playing in. What power amp are you using for this setup?
 
Matrix has proven itself in the field.

I like Fryette's Power Station (neutral tube preamp) even better. But it requires adjustments in the Amp block, which messes up the direct signal.
 
till 3 years ago I used my Peavy 50/50 Classic tube poweramp with one and sometimes two 412 Marshall cabs and sounded good, also in the mix. As they got to heavy at my age (68) I sold them and got a 212 Marshall cab with 2 Heritage 25W speakers made in England. And with the Peavy into the 212 Marshall box I got lost in the mix. One pub gig I had 1 Matrix q12a as a backup with me and i tried using the Q12 and it did cut through like a knive in the mix. Since than I've gone completly FRFR. I did a few tests now and then with the 212 Marshall cab, but I had gotten so used to my FRFR, I couldn't go back. :)
 
Occasionally I test my backline rigs side by side at band rehearsals: CLR versus power amp + cab, and switch between them while playing. Did so two weeks ago. It's close but power amp + guitar cab still wins.
Wins on stage or in the house? ;)
 
till 3 years ago I used my Peavy 50/50 Classic tube poweramp with one and sometimes two 412 Marshall cabs and sounded good, also in the mix. As they got to heavy at my age (68) I sold them and got a 212 Marshall cab with 2 Heritage 25W speakers made in England. And with the Peavy into the 212 Marshall box I got lost in the mix. One pub gig I had 1 Matrix q12a as a backup with me and i tried using the Q12 and it did cut through like a knive in the mix. Since than I've gone completly FRFR. I did a few tests now and then with the 212 Marshall cab, but I had gotten so used to my FRFR, I couldn't go back. :)

When I was still playing in a straight forward thrash metal band, I really preferred the sound of my Matrix GT1000FX with two CFR12 FRFR-speakers. I cut through the mix like a knife and was really, really tight and clear.

Now, however, I'm playing in a post-metal band which requires the typical wall of sound and feedback and I wasn't able to achieve this feeling and sound with my current setup. So I'm looking forward to trying it with a traditional cabinet.
 
Wins on stage or in the house? ;)

On stage. Regardless of my stage setup, I always send a direct signal to FOH, no microphones.

I use CLRs at home. FRFR works much better to get my tone at reasonable volume levels.
And I use CLRs on large stages, as wedges.

But for backline amplification (full band rehearsals, small venues without PA), I definitively prefer a regular guitar cabinet. And I have to say, not messing with IRs keeps things easier. :)
 
On stage. Regardless of my stage setup, I always send a direct signal to FOH, no microphones.
What's your impression of the difference in the house?
 
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Ah, the audience will not necessarily notice any difference.

When I listen back to recordings of rehearsals, the sound is fine, FRFR or not-FRFR.

But I do notice and feel it when playing. :)
Enough to keep me using the cab.
 
I feel the same way. There's nothing like the feel that goes with a a guitar cab on stage. I'm using a Mesa over-sized 4 x 12, loaded with Celestion Creamback 65s, driving it with a Mesa new model 2:50 power amp. I EQ to taste and it sounds and feels huge. I followed YEK's setup and eliminated the mic on cab and go direct to FOH.
These days sound engineers don't want to hear a lot of bass coming out of the guitar player's rig. And I can't stand the fake shrill of super highs. So I always low cut 100hz and hi cut at around 8k to 10k, depending on preset. I actually tell the engineer to preset those settings in the mix, then EQ from there. Everything cuts great through the mix.
I recently picked up a Mesa semi open back 2 x 12 16 ohm cab, loaded with Black Shadows, (Celestion MC90s), for smaller gigs. I rewired it to 8 ohm stereo to be able to use both channels of my 2:50, and it sounds huge. 50 watts really drive those 90 watt speakers. I actually had to cut the bass on my presets, because it was deeper than my 4 x 12. I'm feeling the airiness that open backs have and it's nice.
 
...But for backline amplification (full band rehearsals, small venues without PA), I definitively prefer a regular guitar cabinet. And I have to say, not messing with IRs keeps things easier. :)
...But I do notice and feel it when playing. :)
Enough to keep me using the cab.
This is a very interesting topic for me. I use my Axe FX II quite a bit for cover band gigs where I monitor through my vocal wedge but recognize it as a compromise. It sounds great for direct to PA and recording (using cab and mic simulation). I also use it often for effects only with my "real" amps. That said, I've never been able to get an "in the room" tone that I'm satisfied with from FRFR. Even with a power amp into guitar cabs (I've mostly used my Mosvalve power amp but have tried others) I always end up preferring a real amp. Probably the best "in the room" tone I've been able to get is with the loop in of one of my tube amps. I'd be interested in hearing any additional tips for use with guitar cabs. FWIW, my Axe is up to date (Quantum 7) and I like classic rock tones from clean to crunch. I'm comparing to a variety of amps I own including vintage Marshall, Fender and clones.
 
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@andyp13 Yes you can call me that - Black Bitch is the name of my Black Les Paul which sounds quite nasty. With tghe Q12 you have to watch out for the bass at gig volume. But this preset is made loud at gig volume. ;)

EDIT: here is a clip from last week and played with fw Rev 7.02 and my beloved Black Bitch


Hi
You say in the vid that you use the OH MAR cab? What cab pack is that from?
 
FRFR in theory is not what you actually get in practice. IRs will sound different with different FRFR setups and systems. So whatever is your FRFR playback system is going to probably need tweaks in your fractal unit to get where you want it including differing IR cabs. It does make some sense to go with a guitar cab of your choice and skip the IR cabs as it makes for one less thing to fiddle with. FRFR is totally overrated and does not necessarily give you any better tone that choosing your favorite guitar cab.
 
I respectfully disagree.

It's a very good starting point, certainly a lot better than putting in a totally colored cab, where you can tweak for months and still not get something close to what you're looking for....

I agree that not all FRFRs will sound the same; it's not even close to possible, but they will be close enough that you can build on it. And IR's are not designed to go on colored cabs; It defeats the whole purpose of cab SIM's.

To get as close as possible to the desired cab sim, you need to start with a neutral speaker, and an FRFR is as close to neutral as you're going to get.

It's why recording studios use studio monitors. They were created for a reason.

They don't use hi-fi speakers in recording studios because they're totally colored and don't give you a true, accurate picture of what's going on. A true FRFR would be the same as a true studio monitor, with as little coloration as possible, so you get the full benefit of a cab sim.

There was a reason that every single recording studio used to use JBL 4311's. And there's a reason why you are supposed to use an FRFR with a cab sim.
 
I respectfully disagree.

It's a very good starting point, certainly a lot better than putting in a totally colored cab, where you can tweak for months and still not get something close to what you're looking for....

I agree that not all FRFRs will sound the same; it's not even close to possible, but they will be close enough that you can build on it. And IR's are not designed to go on colored cabs; It defeats the whole purpose of cab SIM's.

To get as close as possible to the desired cab sim, you need to start with a neutral speaker, and an FRFR is as close to neutral as you're going to get.

It's why recording studios use studio monitors. They were created for a reason.

They don't use hi-fi speakers in recording studios because they're totally colored and don't give you a true, accurate picture of what's going on. A true FRFR would be the same as a true studio monitor, with as little coloration as possible, so you get the full benefit of a cab sim.

There was a reason that every single recording studio used to use JBL 4311's. And there's a reason why you are supposed to use an FRFR with a cab sim.
Well now, not every single recording studio used 4311's. I should know as I worked in a few of them in the late 70's and early 80's in LA. I actually owned a set of 4311's during that time period. They were thought to not color the sound that much. But more to the point, studio's needed a standard to mix by. Many also chose Yamaha NS 10s to standardize a bookshelf type speaker (sitting on the console shelf) which definitely was not a neutral sounding speaker. In any case, I did not suggest to use cab IR sims with a guitar type cab and speaker. There really is no such thing as a true FRFR speaker in a 'cab'. I have tried a few and they are all different sounding depending on various factors such as what cabinet it is in and its resonate frequencies etc. Essentially it can become another rabbit hole to chase down depending on what you are going for. With that being said I own two FRFR type systems. One more of a studio monitor type and the other a single mono cabinet type. They sound fairly different on the same preset with the same IR cabs. You can over come some of this by tweaking various properties within the fractal unit. The main point I was trying to make was that if you have been playing a real amp and guitar cab for some time that you like and then switch to a fractal unit, you might be better off using the same cab/speaker with the cab IRs switched off to get the tone's closer to what you might be used too and like. Nothing particularly wrong with going FRFR but it has its own set of challenges.
 
Right...I agree that not all FRFR's will sound the same. Your suggestion about playing through the guitars cabs, I agree as well...if you're willing to stick with what that cab delivers and if you're willing to buy something like a Matrix amp to go with that. Been there done that... Moved to FRFR's...;). I like the versatility.

Personally, I like the powered FRFR's with a cab SIM. I can switch from Marshall to Recto cab based presets easily! Those are the two I use most frequently; we just don't have that flexibility when using a real guitar cab.
 
Right...I agree that not all FRFR's will sound the same. Your suggestion about playing through the guitars cabs, I agree as well...if you're willing to stick with what that cab delivers and if you're willing to buy something like a Matrix amp to go with that. Been there done that... Moved to FRFR's...;). I like the versatility.

Personally, I like the powered FRFR's with a cab SIM. I can switch from Marshall to Recto cab based presets easily! Those are the two I use most frequently; we just don't have that flexibility when using a real guitar cab.
I think we agree more than not. As I said before I have two FRFR setups with an FM9. One stereo type and one mono. Love the versatility of changing tones. With that being said, kind of miss the tube combo amps like the Princeton Reverb etc. Less fiddling more playing and getting the tone with my fingers as much as possible. Play mostly clean with a little crunch. Dumped most of my pedals except a few. For me, the biggest obstacle and headache in going the Fractal route was choosing the playback system. From what I read on these posts it is also subject to a lot of discussion. I wonder where those 4311's I had went . . . . . . ?
 
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