Guitar cab vs FRFR?

[Jimmytwotimes]

I will jump the chasm here shortly from real cabs to FRFR. Wide open to suggestions.

Currently thinking about purchasing the Celestion V30 IRs pack to replicate my current rig. Any experiences or suggestions?

I am considering the same - I use the cab block when I record to DAW and when I play through my studio monitors - but still use my Port city 2x12 and matrix 1000 for 99% of my playing. I do have EV12L's in it - and I don't notice a ton of lack of dispersion with it.
That said, the more and more I read about how great peoples experiences are with FRFR, I am considering on possibly picking up a passive Matrix Q12 to use with my power amp. I'm just torn because it is over $700.. not sure I want to spend that kind of cash with the possibility of being disappointed... Hmmmm..

 

[StickMan]

The "not used as a backline" issue seems like a pretty narrow use case. I mean, you'd have to be playing in a place big enough that you're cranking loud, yet lacking a PA system to plug into. Also is there any reason why loud FOH would be any different than loud FRFR cabinet - it's essentially the same, right?

 

[CactusTone]

If you substitute only the triaxis and G-Major in your chain your sound should be pretty identical to the one you had before. How could you be "utterly disappointed"?

The Axe doesn't sound exactly like my Triaxis. It also felt different, until I started using IRs and power amp modeling into FRFR.

 

[Rontti]

Another happy FRFR user here Depending on the venue, I have used my DXR10 in front of me like a typical monitor, on my side, behind my back. Works every time like a charm, don't miss cabs at all.

I have no experience in Celestion IRs, mostly used Ownhammer. Recently got this Heavy Hitters Pack, such sweet V30 stuff there!

 

[bdrepko]

But it seems no one uses an FRFR as a backline (Axe-amp-FRFR) in a band that uses for example just a vocal PA (no FOH) so that says a lot about FRFR.
Everyone who uses FRFR live seems to use the cabs as 'personal monitors' the main sound is going to the FOH.
So it seems in a normal bar band setup, the real guitar cab is the one that gets used....I posted a forum a while ago asking if anyone uses FRFR as backline and it appears that no one does......so it I guess that a guitar cab at gig volume blows FRFR.

Not 100% sure if this answers what you are asking. I do not bring a cab or personal FRFR to the shows. I go through the monitor wedges that the rest of the band goes through. We have wedge monitors on either side of the stage and one powered monitor for the drummer. We each get our own mixes, so mine mainly consists of my guitar and the vocals.

 

[andyp13]

I'm talking about when you do a gig with a loud band with just a vocal rig, then you have to rely on your backline for volume (as you can't plug into the PA) this is the norm in uk pubs/bars and it is in this situation that guitar cabs get used as supposed to FRFR cabs.

 

[Rex]

I listened to one of my favourite guitarist, Bill Frisell, at the Blue Note in Milan and I was in the front row, so close to him that I could totally hear what he was hearing from his amp. And that tone was great. Sure, not applicably to many genres, but for softer music and intimate locations it's incredible.

You might have been close enough to hear his amp clearly, but you almost certainly weren't hearing what he as hearing. His ears were off-axis from his amp by a considerable amount. For him, that cut his highs way back and made the room reflections become a bigger part of what he hears.
Your ears were more or less taking direct fire from the bright and brittle "cone of death" in front of his speaker.

What Bill heard was warmer and more ambient—more "amp in the room"—than what you heard.

 

[andyp13]

So, if you guys are saying that by using an FRFR cab on stage you will hear exactly what everyone else is hearing (dispite also going into the FOH which will include a mixer and more EQ and then into some different speakers), so why does the majority use normal guitar cabs then?
No one has yet admitted to using an FRFR cab as a main backline without also going into FOH (effectively using the FRFR as a stage monitor and not a guitar cab replacement).
Just saying

 

[Rex]

This one is directed towards anyone who has experience of the cab sims.

Do they really make that much difference to the overall tone/sound?

Yes.

 

[StickMan]

No one has yet admitted to using an FRFR cab as a main backline without also going into FOH (effectively using the FRFR as a stage monitor and not a guitar cab replacement).
Just saying

Perhaps you could explain the mechanism by which FOH could sound different than FRFR on stage?

 

[Tahoebrian5]

So, if you guys are saying that by using an FRFR cab on stage you will hear exactly what everyone else is hearing (dispite also going into the FOH which will include a mixer and more EQ and then into some different speakers), so why does the majority use normal guitar cabs then?
No one has yet admitted to using an FRFR cab as a main backline without also going into FOH (effectively using the FRFR as a stage monitor and not a guitar cab replacement).
Just saying

If you are going frfr and FOH, tell your sound guy to run your eq flat to start with. The FOH speakers may sound a bit different but should be close and certainly will sound way better than a live mic'd cab. Then you just have to trust his judgement if he needs to ad a bit of eq. Even in a small bar if the guitars are not through FOH, frfr is better because of wider dispersion. It will sound more consistent throughout the room. Literally the only negative is if the guitar player (you) can't get used to the change. It's going to sound better to everyone else in the room assuming you dialed in a good sound.

 

[Tahoebrian5]

Best way to verify this, have both an frfr cab and real cab setup. Record a loop with the looper block, have your band play along to it and go out front. Then switch to frfr and go walk around. It's a bit of work but this is the only way you will know for sure which is better.

 

[SteveW]

Well, one thing for sure....you can't use a guitar cab for more than the one tone it was made for...whereas with the cabs sims on the Axe and FRFR's, you can dial in anything you want. I don't play on stages anymore...only at home, and for me, the FRFR's beat cabs . I went from numerous 4 x 12 stacks/ cabs to FRFR's.

I suppose one could make the same argument with regards to the Axe vs tube amps...

It took a long time for artists and the guitar community to adopt modelers over amps, and then as modelers got so much better, the artists started to adopt modelers as the standard...and my guess is that eventually, the same trend will continue with cabs vs FRFR's.

Cabs may even start to take on a different form one day...to simply look like cabs, but use FRFR drivers / crossovers.

 

[andyp13]

Best way to verify this, have both an frfr cab and real cab setup. Record a loop with the looper block, have your band play along to it and go out front. Then switch to frfr and go walk around. It's a bit of work but this is the only way you will know for sure which is better.

I understand what you are saying, but if this is the case why does the majority of axe users use real guitar cabs in live gigs? I am however considering giving it another try, what put me off the last time I tried an FRFR at gig level was my bass player said that it sounded awful which I was compelled to agree, it was flubby and harsh - I used a Q12 which I still have for home use.

 

[maxdown]

So, if you guys are saying that by using an FRFR cab on stage you will hear exactly what everyone else is hearing (dispite also going into the FOH which will include a mixer and more EQ and then into some different speakers), so why does the majority use normal guitar cabs then?
No one has yet admitted to using an FRFR cab as a main backline without also going into FOH (effectively using the FRFR as a stage monitor and not a guitar cab replacement).
Just saying

In a small bar/club room where vocal PA only is the norm it's exactly the same issue that crops up whether you use FRFR backline or conventional cabs .... stage volume. Someone comes up to you and says 'Can't hear the drums too good at the back of the room' and the drummer then whacks things a bit harder, this in turn causes everyone else to notch up their backline a bit .... then the vocalists need more monitor volume .... and war ensues.

I've played little gigs where I absolutely know that my backline is not carrying enough volume for the room but for the sake of everyone else on stage (and my own ears) I'll put up with it. Can't honestly say I've ever had a 100% perfect stage volume in any bar room gig .... it's collateral damage .... you just roll with it.

I've tried both FRFR and conventional cabs (both driven with the same Matrix SS amp) and find it's 50/50 really which I prefer in a small room. The FRFR tends to cut through better - but needs to have the correct volume set and not be too loud or you sound too 'out of character' with the other backline users. It's nice to have the EQ options built into the Cab block to be able to cut lows/highs so you can end up with something sounding between mic'd up and normal as backline. It's down to convincing yourself that your sound is better/worse when using FRFR ... the more you do it the more accustomed you become with it. On the flip side it's also nice to just fit in with everyone else without stressing and use conventional cabs

@Black Bitch I believe uses his Matrix FRFR cabs for backline driven rooms ..... perhaps he could chime in.

 

[reclavea]

I understand what you are saying, but if this is the case why does the majority of axe users use real guitar cabs in live gigs? I am however considering giving it another try, what put me off the last time I tried an FRFR at gig level was my bass player said that it sounded awful which I was compelled to agree, it was flubby and harsh - I used a Q12 which I still have for home use.

With your scenario with just the PA covering vocals, in my opinion, a FRFR back line would work better providing your audience a more accurate sound of what you intend for them to hear. I remember Egnater came out with a speaker "Tone Bra" which covered the cone of the speakers effectively dispersing the highs and that ice picky dread to even out and distribute the sound more balanced. Tweak your sound on axis and what you hear is what majority of your listeners should hear.

 

[lqdsnddist]

Having spent about 15 years doing concert photography, and having attended about 500+ shows, I can say for certain that bands that use guitar amps for their backline always have the worst live sound. Being in front of the barricade/front row to take pictures totally would kill my ears when someone would have a 4x12 with v30's. Those things were blasting an icepick tone right at what is my head level (depending to some degree on the height of the stage).

Its one thing to have a loud cab flapping your trouser leg, when your ears are about a good level higher, but from the audience position its ice pick city, unless your out of the line of fire to the side of the stage.

Pretty much every show I've been to, has been loud and harsh sounding, with the exception of some smaller trio types where its thing like upright bass, soft hitting drummer and a guitarist playing something like a 1x12 combo amp. No much in the way of "volume wars" in that setting.

Whenever its more of a rock band, its one guy with a 4x12 who thinks he has to crank it, to match the volume of the drummer, or the other guitarist, who also is cranking his rig, because again, the off-axis listening might sound good, but someone, somewhere is getting the on axis sound. Then the vocal PA usually can't deliver a clear tone when its cranked to compete with a 100watt amp and 4x12 cab, so then the vocals are too loud as well, and essentially the whole show is just loud, but not clear, full or rich sounding.

Compare that with shows where bands run ISO cabs, or IEM's and a silent stage. The whole show, with proper instrument mixes, is running through the FOH, which has a much better spread, and can tailored to the venue. Sounds so much better, its loud, but full, and clear, with no harshness. No icepick in the ears. Totally more enjoyable.

IMO, every band member should have IEM's, or just use a wedge. Given wedges vary, many enjoy using a FRFR for this purpose.

You can use a FRFR like a CLR for a backline I suppose, but I for one don't really see my CLR, with its 1x12 speaker, really as a tool to deliver sound to the whole venue. Its for my own stage monitoring, as I'm not a fan of IEM's.


In a perfect world (for me) every band would have a decent PA, if the venue doesn't, and cabs would be mic'd, or better yet, use load boxes and IR's, and all the house sound would be delivered with proper mix through the PA system.

Using an Axe-FX just helps avoid issues with carrying amps, load boxes etc, as the entire rig can plug right into the mixer.

Then its as simple as using a house wedge, bring your own monitor, or use IEM's, to have a custom monitor mix hearing yourself, and the rest of the band, at the levels each member wants.

Its the end of volume wars

 

[steadystate]

I understand what you are saying, but if this is the case why does the majority of axe users use real guitar cabs in live gigs?

How did you come to that conclusion? As we have no data, I could state an equally unverified case for the opposite. What I can say with confidence is that most backline amps that use cabs are not driven by preamps/amps with IR convolution technology. They are combos or driven by standard heads

Guitar amps and speakers have been around since the 1920s. The controls are simple. Anyone can understand how to set them up and operate them in a bar/pub situation or if pressed for time. They generally come with their own simple footswitch to change channels. They are quick and easy. They are familiar. And they work.

FRFR systems with IR convolution technology are much newer to the scene, can cost significantly more, can have hundreds of adjustable parameters, can have thousands of IR from which to choose, can require a more complex foot controller that requires programming, and usually can't be effectively operated without reading a substantial user manual. These are the aspects that don't translate well to a sit-in guitarist on a beer-soaked bar stage. Place an Axe II and CLR cab next to a Marshall half stack, and the average bar guitarist will plug into what he knows and understands. Tone doesn't even enter into this decision.

Cabs can sound great. They may even sound great at several different listening positions. But they won't sound the same at those positions. And you are stuck with one impulse response. FRFR allows unlimited impulse responses and an amplitude response that is uniform over a large area. Real cabs/speakers have non-linear characteristics that set them apart from convolution IRs, but new algorithms such as speaker drive and motor drive are eliminating that gap. Far field IRs are difficult to capture (I've never heard a good one), but that is not important to me.

Cabs and FRFR provide a very different experience. Any person's preference is the correct one. But it helps to know the pros and cons of both. I recently played through an Orange cab, and I loved it. But it isn't practical for me, not for live use nor recording, for reasons mentioned in this thread.

 

[Rex]

...why does the majority of axe users use real guitar cabs in live gigs?

The majority don't. There was a poll here recently. An overwhelming majority of the respondents run FRFR.

 

[Rex]

Perhaps you could explain the mechanism by which FOH could sound different than FRFR on stage?

Different location in the room, flown mains vs a speaker on the stage floor, different different drivers in different cabinets...

Still, your FRFR on stage will usually give you the most accurate impression of what the audience hears.