Guitar Cab or FRFR?

Think of the AXE FX II like a REAL traditional rig like this one:


Pedals - Amps - Cabs - MICROPHONES. -> Would you send this chain to ANOTHER 4x12 guitar cabinet? I dont think so...

In my opinion, FRFR all the way. Give me powered monitors, in-ears, whatever. Never a guitar cab. (If using the Axe FX II Cab sims ON, of course)
 
With the help of the great people at Matrix, I wrote the following for another forum:

Here is some Q&A from Matrix that I thought would be of interest to others:

Q: I've been an Axe user since the original unit was released. I'm a huge fan of the Axe II and I've read many great things about Matrix on the Axe forum. I would like to learn to use a real power amp with the Axe and get a speaker cabinet. I would like to buy the best quality Matrix amp for indoors and for live gigs. Which model do you recommend and with which speaker cab that is no bigger than an AC-30 (even better if I can get smaller than an AC-30). I'm going to use all the Axe modeling and I want to get the most authentic tone possible.

I saw this quote by Cliff at Fractal: ""You will never get an FRFR solution to sound the same as an amp through a guitar cab. If you put your Axe-Fx through a neutral power amp and a guitar cab, I bet I could fool you in a blind test." I would like the speaker cab to be high quality and be able to work with the Matrix power amp to get to the level that Cliff is eluding to here. And of course I would like the power amp and guitar cab to come as close as possible to my AC-30.

A: OK, so there are 2 basic avenues to choose with going the Axe Fx route. One is called FRFR (full range, flat response) and the other is using a traditional guitar speaker. The FRFR system allows you to use the full capabilities of the Axe's cabinet simulations and the variety, tonally and choice wise it provides. The FRFR system is all dependent on the quality of the IR (impulse response) or cabinet simulation to put simply. This is the weak link, because it's basically a snapshot of a mic'd up cab - what you hear back is a mic'd up cab sound. You tend to lose the "in the room" feel of a real cab. Some players cannot translate to this style whilst others do so easier. Obviously the quality of the FRFR delivery system is important and the flatter the better but the right IR choice is crucial to get as realistic a sound as possible. Multiple mic'd IR's and ones that capture some of the room essences are tending to gain favor as these sound "realer" than the early close mic'd ones.

A traditional cab will give you the "in the room" feel and 3D aspect of sound, however, to a certain extent all your sounds will be coloured by the cab and it's individual tonality.

I point this out to you as you will need to look at the sounds you are using and what you are hoping to achieve sound wise. If you are used to one tone then obviously that may be easier to stick to the traditional cab route. Also to consider is stereo. I see from the email that U2 is going to be a factor in this and possibly recreating The Edge's tones. The Axe is capable of doing a more than adequate job of the AC30 preamps and the Matrix amps will do the power side of things no problem. A Vox cab will recreate the tone pretty much spot on.

Saying that, there are some tricks to get an FRFR system close to that "cab in the room" feel. One trick is to add some mids to the cab. Some people do this at the end of the chain, I tend to do this with a PEQ block in parallel with the cab block. I block the high and low frequencies and boost the mids to recreate the flavour of the cab that's in the cab sim. I also add some high mids to help cut through and this works very well. Some people have also found that the "Air" control in the cab block can give some added feeling. Set the amount to about 20% and the frequency to around 5khz and this also gives some of the sparkle back to the "in the room" sound.

So the FRFR route is not a dead end for everyone and there are some work-arounds if you are willing to be flexible and tweak a little.

Forgive the long email so far but I obviously wanted to point out the benefits and pitfalls of both systems and give you the full info to make the right choice.

So on to the gear.

Small and portable seems to be the pre-requisite. The amps themselves are lightweight. I'd recommend the GT1000Fx 2U amp. The 2U is almost silent for home use, not much heavier than the 1U and of course stereo. You would be able to use different amp models to different speakers if you needed to, even different rated speakers (say a 16ohm and an 8ohm).The amp will happily handle that or even no speaker attached. The GT1500 was in reality developed for wet dry wet setups. I think the GT1000 would be sufficient.

So on to the speakers. FRFR wise I'd say the Q12's would be the way to go. Small (slightly smaller than a Mesa 1x12 Thiele cab).
If FRFR would be a step too far at the moment and you feel you may not get used to the drawbacks, then the NL12s may be more suitable. These are ultra lightweight and small but have a huge sound. They are standard guitar cabs but are fairly neutral sounding and quite flat in the low mids, so they do lend themselves well to being EQ'd and having their sound changed. This aspect has led some users to using IR's with them and finding they work. (will depend on the individuals taste and of course the IR used). You still retain the benefit of the cab feel but with it being fairly neutral, you can tonally imprint a lot of variety into the sounds.

My recommendation would be 2 NL12's and a GT1000FX 2U. Ultra portable live rig or small setup for home, stereo with a wide spread and the cabs have a good wide dispersion (almost open backed in feel) as well as sounding like a good 2x12.

Have a think and weigh up the info I've given you. The FRFR route will require more in depth tweaking. Obviously you'll no more on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go with that!

The NL212 is stereo in fact. (stereo/mono switchable) so that should be great. Obviously the stereo spread isn't as great as two wider spaced NL12s but should be sufficient and slightly better than a normal 212.

Q: When using the Matrix power amp and the cab, do you turn off the power amp modeling in the Axe also? So the path is just pre-amp model into Matrix power amp into Matrix cab. You mentioned that some people use IRs with the Matrix NL212 cab. How do they add the IR? Do you just add a cab block after the amp model block (with power amp off) before going to the Matrix power amp? I want to make sure I understand how I will use the NL212 with and without IRs.

A: Leave the power amp sims ON in the Axe Fx. Adding the IR is basically just adding a cab block to the signal chain. Experiment with what sounds best to you IR wise. Normally it will sound better with no cab sim but you may find some that work well which act like an EQ basically.

Q: Thank you. So the Matrix power amp is just FRFR volume and adds no "power amp color." The Matrix cab adds color but I can use the IR/cab to add additional color or change the EQ if I can't get what I want with the detailed amp settings and amp EQ page.

A: The Matrix amp is flat response and obviously full range yes, it won't add coloration to the sound or impart it's own EQ like a valve amp. All the tube characteristics and tonal shaping, should come from the Axe Fx. The cabs as you say add their own color but will accept added EQ or IR's (an IR is after all a fancy EQ) a little better than most other speakers as they are a little more neutral. Some of the Advanced amp tweaks in the Axe won't affect the EQ, just how the amp feels and how certain frequencies "feel". One of the things we did with the GT1000 over the GT800 was change how the low end controls and interacts with a speaker load, making it react more like a valve amp does.....this didn't change the EQ in any way but changed the "looseness" of the low mids.

What I ultimate did:
I ultimately went with the NL212 cab. It has a flat response and I don't need to deal with IRs. I just adjust the amp model block to compensate for the NL212. You can get any tone with just one cab - all you do is adjust the amp model block since there is so much flexibility with so many parameters. I chose not to have to deal with IRs and cabs, as it requires more time. The one cab fixes that point in the chain and forces me to focus on the amp model.

Greetings. Currently im using matrix gt800fx + matrix nl12. Dunno why, i never happy with the tone produced with power amp and cab ( with cab sim off )because the tone is very thin and dry. Almost like u using frfr speaker or monitor speaker with cab sim off. Currently im turn on all the cab sim for my preset. Are there certain setup in axe fx's global menu?thanks in foward.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Greetings. Currently im using matrix gt800fx + matrix nl12. Dunno why, i never happy with the tone produced with power amp and cab ( with cab sim off )because the tone is very thin and dry. Almost like u using frfr speaker or monitor speaker with cab sim off. Currently im turn on all the cab sim for my preset. Are there certain setup in axe fx's global menu?thanks in foward.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't have that problem at all. If I turn on the cab model, then it's too muddy or slightly "too much" cab. Is your wiring correct? No phase problems? Perhaps ask Matrix. I have the NL212 which is stereo but I don't think it's much different other than the two speakers. Here is my NL212 against a 1964 AC-30. Skip my intro as it's a little long:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt5bOCP1Wag
 
I don't have that problem at all. If I turn on the cab model, then it's too muddy or slightly "too much" cab. Is your wiring correct? No phase problems? Perhaps ask Matrix. I have the NL212 which is stereo but I don't think it's much different other than the two speakers. Here is my NL212 against a 1964 AC-30. Skip my intro as it's a little long:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt5bOCP1Wag

Wiring problem?i think my connection for the
Power amp and cab is correct. I wonder why.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I use Axe-FX II XL - Matrix GT1000FX - Marshall 4 x 12 and I love the tones I get.

I'd love to try a Matrix FRFR 2x12 but it's rather a lot of cash just to see if I like it.
 
With the help of the great people at Matrix, I wrote the following for another forum:

Here is some Q&A from Matrix that I thought would be of interest to others:

Q: I've been an Axe user since the original unit was released. I'm a huge fan of the Axe II and I've read many great things about Matrix on the Axe forum. I would like to learn to use a real power amp with the Axe and get a speaker cabinet. I would like to buy the best quality Matrix amp for indoors and for live gigs. Which model do you recommend and with which speaker cab that is no bigger than an AC-30 (even better if I can get smaller than an AC-30). I'm going to use all the Axe modeling and I want to get the most authentic tone possible.

I saw this quote by Cliff at Fractal: ""You will never get an FRFR solution to sound the same as an amp through a guitar cab. If you put your Axe-Fx through a neutral power amp and a guitar cab, I bet I could fool you in a blind test." I would like the speaker cab to be high quality and be able to work with the Matrix power amp to get to the level that Cliff is eluding to here. And of course I would like the power amp and guitar cab to come as close as possible to my AC-30.

A: OK, so there are 2 basic avenues to choose with going the Axe Fx route. One is called FRFR (full range, flat response) and the other is using a traditional guitar speaker. The FRFR system allows you to use the full capabilities of the Axe's cabinet simulations and the variety, tonally and choice wise it provides. The FRFR system is all dependent on the quality of the IR (impulse response) or cabinet simulation to put simply. This is the weak link, because it's basically a snapshot of a mic'd up cab - what you hear back is a mic'd up cab sound. You tend to lose the "in the room" feel of a real cab. Some players cannot translate to this style whilst others do so easier. Obviously the quality of the FRFR delivery system is important and the flatter the better but the right IR choice is crucial to get as realistic a sound as possible. Multiple mic'd IR's and ones that capture some of the room essences are tending to gain favor as these sound "realer" than the early close mic'd ones.

A traditional cab will give you the "in the room" feel and 3D aspect of sound, however, to a certain extent all your sounds will be coloured by the cab and it's individual tonality.

I point this out to you as you will need to look at the sounds you are using and what you are hoping to achieve sound wise. If you are used to one tone then obviously that may be easier to stick to the traditional cab route. Also to consider is stereo. I see from the email that U2 is going to be a factor in this and possibly recreating The Edge's tones. The Axe is capable of doing a more than adequate job of the AC30 preamps and the Matrix amps will do the power side of things no problem. A Vox cab will recreate the tone pretty much spot on.

Saying that, there are some tricks to get an FRFR system close to that "cab in the room" feel. One trick is to add some mids to the cab. Some people do this at the end of the chain, I tend to do this with a PEQ block in parallel with the cab block. I block the high and low frequencies and boost the mids to recreate the flavour of the cab that's in the cab sim. I also add some high mids to help cut through and this works very well. Some people have also found that the "Air" control in the cab block can give some added feeling. Set the amount to about 20% and the frequency to around 5khz and this also gives some of the sparkle back to the "in the room" sound.

So the FRFR route is not a dead end for everyone and there are some work-arounds if you are willing to be flexible and tweak a little.

Forgive the long email so far but I obviously wanted to point out the benefits and pitfalls of both systems and give you the full info to make the right choice.

So on to the gear.

Small and portable seems to be the pre-requisite. The amps themselves are lightweight. I'd recommend the GT1000Fx 2U amp. The 2U is almost silent for home use, not much heavier than the 1U and of course stereo. You would be able to use different amp models to different speakers if you needed to, even different rated speakers (say a 16ohm and an 8ohm).The amp will happily handle that or even no speaker attached. The GT1500 was in reality developed for wet dry wet setups. I think the GT1000 would be sufficient.

So on to the speakers. FRFR wise I'd say the Q12's would be the way to go. Small (slightly smaller than a Mesa 1x12 Thiele cab).
If FRFR would be a step too far at the moment and you feel you may not get used to the drawbacks, then the NL12s may be more suitable. These are ultra lightweight and small but have a huge sound. They are standard guitar cabs but are fairly neutral sounding and quite flat in the low mids, so they do lend themselves well to being EQ'd and having their sound changed. This aspect has led some users to using IR's with them and finding they work. (will depend on the individuals taste and of course the IR used). You still retain the benefit of the cab feel but with it being fairly neutral, you can tonally imprint a lot of variety into the sounds.

My recommendation would be 2 NL12's and a GT1000FX 2U. Ultra portable live rig or small setup for home, stereo with a wide spread and the cabs have a good wide dispersion (almost open backed in feel) as well as sounding like a good 2x12.

Have a think and weigh up the info I've given you. The FRFR route will require more in depth tweaking. Obviously you'll no more on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go with that!

The NL212 is stereo in fact. (stereo/mono switchable) so that should be great. Obviously the stereo spread isn't as great as two wider spaced NL12s but should be sufficient and slightly better than a normal 212.

Q: When using the Matrix power amp and the cab, do you turn off the power amp modeling in the Axe also? So the path is just pre-amp model into Matrix power amp into Matrix cab. You mentioned that some people use IRs with the Matrix NL212 cab. How do they add the IR? Do you just add a cab block after the amp model block (with power amp off) before going to the Matrix power amp? I want to make sure I understand how I will use the NL212 with and without IRs.

A: Leave the power amp sims ON in the Axe Fx. Adding the IR is basically just adding a cab block to the signal chain. Experiment with what sounds best to you IR wise. Normally it will sound better with no cab sim but you may find some that work well which act like an EQ basically.

Q: Thank you. So the Matrix power amp is just FRFR volume and adds no "power amp color." The Matrix cab adds color but I can use the IR/cab to add additional color or change the EQ if I can't get what I want with the detailed amp settings and amp EQ page.

A: The Matrix amp is flat response and obviously full range yes, it won't add coloration to the sound or impart it's own EQ like a valve amp. All the tube characteristics and tonal shaping, should come from the Axe Fx. The cabs as you say add their own color but will accept added EQ or IR's (an IR is after all a fancy EQ) a little better than most other speakers as they are a little more neutral. Some of the Advanced amp tweaks in the Axe won't affect the EQ, just how the amp feels and how certain frequencies "feel". One of the things we did with the GT1000 over the GT800 was change how the low end controls and interacts with a speaker load, making it react more like a valve amp does.....this didn't change the EQ in any way but changed the "looseness" of the low mids.

What I ultimate did:
I ultimately went with the NL212 cab. It has a flat response and I don't need to deal with IRs. I just adjust the amp model block to compensate for the NL212. You can get any tone with just one cab - all you do is adjust the amp model block since there is so much flexibility with so many parameters. I chose not to have to deal with IRs and cabs, as it requires more time. The one cab fixes that point in the chain and forces me to focus on the amp model.

Best written response I've read that's about the Matrix products.

I run my Axe Fx II into a Matrix GT1000 in stereo into 2 Matrix Q12 passive cabs and love it. I am curious about the NL212 cabs though.

From the Q&A above, you would think that Matrix made the NL212 as a product that may be a better solution than the Q12 cabs.
I know its apples and oranges (FRFR vs Guitar cab), but from the above response from Matrix, its sounds like the NL212 is the best of both worlds.

Any Q12 to NL212 coverts here that were glad they made the switch?
 
I use Axe-FX II XL - Matrix GT1000FX - Marshall 4 x 12 and I love the tones I get.

I'd love to try a Matrix FRFR 2x12 but it's rather a lot of cash just to see if I like it.
+1

I'll wait one more year before I buy, to see how the FRFR camp is doing in terms of technology and prices.
 
I use four 4*12 Mesa Cabs

jonghyun-star-king.gif
 
I use four 4*12 Mesa Cabs and leave Cabs sims on. It sounds way way way better (and yes I play at crazy high
Volumes).

Perhaps you need to go through the hundreds of available ultra res cabs? Maybe you just chose one you do not like.

Legend. End of.
 
I use Axe-FX II XL - Matrix GT1000FX - Marshall 4 x 12 and I love the tones I get.

I'd love to try a Matrix FRFR 2x12 but it's rather a lot of cash just to see if I like it.

I use four 4*12 Mesa Cabs and leave Cabs sims on. It sounds way way way better



Ok, could you guys post one of these presets so I could try it out maybe its just my presets???
 
I don't get this at all - every single time I have turned cab sims off for the last several years when running into real cabs my Axe sounded like complete and utter crap. Happened with both the Ultra and the Axe Fx II. Yet everyone praises this method - it boggles my mind. I have gotten infinitely better tone using IRs with real cabs. I also use IRs with my FRFR.
 
Hey guys I am a little confused and can't decide what setup is the best for my needs. Please for you guys what is the best setup:

1) Axe Fx II XL + Atomic Neo CLR active wedge;
2) Axe FX II XL + Matrix Power Amp + Atomic Neo CLR passive wedge;
3) Axe FX II XL + Matrix Power Amp + AccuGroove Espresso wedge;
4) Axe FX II XL + Matrix Power Amp + Matrix NL212 cab;
5) Axe FX II XL + another setup you believe is better.

My need is a simple lightweight setup that I can take from home to the stage 3 times a week. On the stage I run my Axe FX directly to the PA. So I want a cab to rear what I am playing (wedge seems to be better choice) and really like the idea of using all the cab sim and features of a FRFR Axe Fx setup. Not sure if I should go for Matrix power amp + passive cab or just an active cab. I understand some of you like the setup of a guitar cab instead of FRFR but since I am running directly to the PA I really want a FRFR monitoring solution. Need something simple and "plug and play" since we have no time to fine tune our sound with the PA guys. It's arrive on stage, plug everything, check if the sound is working and thats it (unfortunately).

*** I use studio monitors (Yamaha) at home so I don't need a cab to use when I am not on stage.
 
The "best" is highly subjective. These are all good products.

A separate power amp is handy when you need to amplify varying cabs.
If you'll always use the same cab, and not a traditional one, there's no advantage to having a separate power amp IMHO.

The GT1000FX is a great high-power neutral power amp, if you want to drive a standalone cab (FRFR or traditonal).

If you want a smaller dedicated power amp, you can also consider a Matrix GM50 (basically an one-channel GT1000FX).
Just mount it in the back of a 1x12 or 2x12 cabs, space permitting.

Want an even smaller power amp: EHX Magnum 44 (my backup). It's a pedal. Sounds great IMHO. Not much clean headroom at higher volume levels though.

If you go for CLR, I recommend getting the active wedge. Less to carry (built-in amp), and you can use its great EQ options.

AFAIK the NL212 is not really a FRFR solution, even though some players run it with cab sims.
 
Thank you so much Yek! I think I will go for the CLR active wedge. Seems to me the much simpler solution. Tried to buy it but no answer from the manufacturer after months waiting. :(
 
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