Guitar Brightness – Raw Tone vs Album Tone

[asdfasd]

Hi all,

I’ve been doing a lot of recording lately and have been experimenting with different guitar tones through my Axe Fx. I’m then referencing the tones against my favourite albums.

What I’m noticing is that for the most part the amps on the Axe Fx sound a bit dull compared to the album tones. I’m sure the Axe tones are faithful representations of the amps themselves, but I’m just curious as to why albums sound so bright in comparison. Are mixes made sounding dull and then brightened at the mastering stage? Or are engineers just boosting a lot of high frequencies on their consoles when recording guitars?

I’ll give an example, which is from my favourite album production wise.



I know that these tones were recorded with an Engl Savage, which the Axe Fx can replicate. However I’ve only been able to get close to this level of brightness by using the FAS modern in conjunction with cab 162 (4x12 5153 57 C— 4x12 EVH 5150 III cabinet, Shure SM57, UltraRes) which is a very bright sounding cab, and then boosting the crap out of the high frequencies. After playing through this combination all other amps sound almost unusable due to dullness.

Another example of the relevant producer getting nice, bright guitar tones (at 1 min 20)



The Axe Fx amps sound great until I put them up against albums, which sound a whole lot brighter, less muddy and less boxy. So, I guess my question is – what am I missing? I’m using a Gibson Les Paul Custom with an EMG 81 in the bridge, straight into the Axe Fx which is connected via USB.

Cheers.

 

[chris]

perhaps they boosted the crap out of the highs when they mixed the album?

 

[Arjan]

A very common thing to do in the mix is agressive low-cut on the guitar. This makes the guitar sound brighter as well.

 

[Brownmatthall]

Source tones for the most part are on the darker side. I like to add a high shelf on the master and boost across the board, mastering will also add a sheen that can be perceived as brightness. If you're still not satisfied with a (very slight) high shelf try using a different ir, maybe a single sm57 or md421

 

[barhrecords]

Don't be afraid to use EQ.

 

[Rinkleton]

As a new user I think this is something that needs addressed documentation wise. As I understand, the original purpose of the Axe was to mimic the original amps/cabs/effects as closely as possible. Which I think it does spot on. The reason I think a lot of people don't like it at first go is they expect it to be record ready without any tweaks because they see all these bands that use these on albums and it sounds pretty sweet. But they forget that these major bands also have access to to million dollar recording studios with awesome gear and high end plugins they can run it through (which they would do for analog gear).... not to mention really talented producers.

My guess is that as older users with a lot of experience probably like the axe fx because it sounds so close to what they are used to. But younger (or just less experienced) users have the expectation that it's just going to be perfect right out of the box.

Because of this, I think Cliff is going to have to start addressing this expectation. My idea was to make an effect or global block that is like a daw channel strip with EQ, compression, saturation, etc that has some standard post processing that would be done in a studio. The main idea is that you can switch it on or off globally depending on your purpose (just like you can switch on and off amp/cab emulation if your going to run through a real amp). Maybe this is already in there?

 

[JamieS]

My experience is that mixed albums are a lot brighter than I'd normally dial up. I can't count the number of times I've dialed in a great guitar sound and really liked the sound on playback--and then I brought up some recorded reference material and the treble about tore my head off in comparison.

I don't like very bright guitar sounds to begin with, though, so maybe this is unique to me...

Personally, I tend to record everything how I think it sounds good. When compared to reference material, it's always a little dark, so then I slap a shelf eq on the stereo bus and brighten it. It works all right.

 

[electronpirate]

My impression is that albums are generally listened to at reasonable volumes. They accentuate the highs so you can actually hear them.

To me this is the difference between bedroom volume and gig volume. Any amp sounds VERY different when it's cranked up as opposed to 'the kids are sleeping upstairs'.

R

 

[Rinkleton]

My experience is that mixed albums are a lot brighter than I'd normally dial up. I can't count the number of times I've dialed in a great guitar sound and really liked the sound on playback--and then I brought up some recorded reference material and the treble about tore my head off in comparison.

I don't like very bright guitar sounds to begin with, though, so maybe this is unique to me...

Personally, I tend to record everything how I think it sounds good. When compared to reference material, it's always a little dark, so then I slap a shelf eq on the stereo bus and brighten it. It works all right.

Same exact thing with me. And what the mod said is right too.

 

[Lionheart]

So, I guess my question is – what am I missing?

Fresh strings, possibly. When recording in the studio, I always require the guitarists to use new strings. This has an impact on how bright the guitars are. Nothing sounds better on record than fresh strings.

 

[shadoe]

A common trick when recording heavy guitars is getting a high-end fizz. You have to get a decent one and when you double track and throw in a mix, it makes it sparkle! It's completely achievable with the axe fx and has been done many times. You just didn't realize it.

 

[AlGrenadine]

I sometimes experience the same problem. I've just found that using MV Cap parameter in the AMP block and putting it above 10pF adds a lot of fizz if that's what you're looking for.

 

[juanano]

Totally this, I thought my unit had a problem, every goddamn patch sounds dull and muddy, some sound boomy. I'm forced to boost the high frequencies a lot and cut bass everytime, the sound as it is just doesn't compare to recordings, or even my tube amps. Fortunately the Axe-Fx has different alternatives for eq'ing.

Hi all,

I’ve been doing a lot of recording lately and have been experimenting with different guitar tones through my Axe Fx. I’m then referencing the tones against my favourite albums.

What I’m noticing is that for the most part the amps on the Axe Fx sound a bit dull compared to the album tones. I’m sure the Axe tones are faithful representations of the amps themselves, but I’m just curious as to why albums sound so bright in comparison. Are mixes made sounding dull and then brightened at the mastering stage? Or are engineers just boosting a lot of high frequencies on their consoles when recording guitars?

I’ll give an example, which is from my favourite album production wise.



I know that these tones were recorded with an Engl Savage, which the Axe Fx can replicate. However I’ve only been able to get close to this level of brightness by using the FAS modern in conjunction with cab 162 (4x12 5153 57 C— 4x12 EVH 5150 III cabinet, Shure SM57, UltraRes) which is a very bright sounding cab, and then boosting the crap out of the high frequencies. After playing through this combination all other amps sound almost unusable due to dullness.

Another example of the relevant producer getting nice, bright guitar tones (at 1 min 20)



The Axe Fx amps sound great until I put them up against albums, which sound a whole lot brighter, less muddy and less boxy. So, I guess my question is – what am I missing? I’m using a Gibson Les Paul Custom with an EMG 81 in the bridge, straight into the Axe Fx which is connected via USB.

Cheers.

 

[Rex]

AMy idea was to make an effect or global block that is like a daw channel strip with EQ, compression, saturation, etc that has some standard post processing that would be done in a studio. The main idea is that you can switch it on or off globally depending on your purpose (just like you can switch on and off amp/cab emulation if your going to run through a real amp). Maybe this is already in there?

You haven't popped the lid lately on your Axe-Fx's Cab block, have you?

Have a gander at that block's Preamp page.

 

[6stringscott]

My idea was to make an effect or global block that is like a daw channel strip with EQ, compression, saturation, etc that has some standard post processing that would be done in a studio. The main idea is that you can switch it on or off globally depending on your purpose (just like you can switch on and off amp/cab emulation if your going to run through a real amp). Maybe this is already in there?

Quick and dirty version: use a Multi-Comp block in the end of your chain for an instand "produced" sound. Make it more pronounced by increasing the Level from default 6db to about 9db for each of the 3 frequency bands. That makes the whole sound more "in your face".

 

[Rinkleton]

You haven't popped the lid lately on your Axe-Fx's Cab block, have you?

Have a gander at that block's Preamp page.

I've read all the docs on it, but haven't played with it too much yet. I'm sure the ability is in there somewhere, just for bozos like me that don't totally know what they are doing, figuring all that out isn't straightforward. I just anticipate this unit appealing to people like me more and more. The "Superior Drummer / Axe Fx / 1 mic and cheap preamp / cubase" kids. You can make a really awesome sounding record with just that stuff. But this is the lazy digital generation who just want to download a preset and instantly sound like their favorite song. (me) These people are going to be the main demographic in a few years.

Another part of it in my mind is duplicating how it gets done in real life. In the real world, the 'shine' gets put on after it hits the mic (as opposed to in the cab), so I like 6stringscott's recommendation. It would be cool if that was always there for every preset if it wanted to use it or not.

 

[barhrecords]

I've read all the docs on it, but haven't played with it too much yet. I'm sure the ability is in there somewhere, just for bozos like me that don't totally know what they are doing, figuring all that out isn't straightforward. I just anticipate this unit appealing to people like me more and more. The "Superior Drummer / Axe Fx / 1 mic and cheap preamp / cubase" kids. You can make a really awesome sounding record with just that stuff. But this is the lazy digital generation who just want to download a preset and instantly sound like their favorite song. (me) These people are going to be the main demographic in a few years.

Another part of it in my mind is duplicating how it gets done in real life. In the real world, the 'shine' gets put on after it hits the mic (as opposed to in the cab), so I like 6stringscott's recommendation. It would be cool if that was always there for every preset if it wanted to use it or not.

I've been working with Fractal hardware since 2010. So far their approach has been to offer the highest quality audio and a very comprehensive tool set.

Not so much for the folks that don't want to put in any work or aren't interested in learning about amps and how gear works.

IMO, it takes some effort on the part of the user. But the results are worth it to me.

 

[Rex]

In the real world, the 'shine' gets put on after it hits the mic (as opposed to in the cab)...

In the Fractal world, it happens the same way. The Preamp page is applied after the cab/mic simulation. It has everything you asked for above:

My idea was to make an effect or global block that is like a daw channel strip with EQ, compression, saturation, etc...

...haven't played with it too much yet.

That's the real issue. Play with it, and find out what the knobs do. To be honest, until you get a handle on that, putting those controls in a separate block won't make it any easier for you.

 

[JT2]

Mixing down and mastering have big and different effects on the final result. The mix stabilizes each instrument and voice in it's prospective space. The Masters of Mastering make sure the music will sound good on any device. These both have a lot to do with the final tonal result. Just as nailing a great tone at 'bedroom level' will not be the same at 'live level'. There are a lot of variables that change with every room or listening place.

 

[HarrySound]

This is EXACTLY the question I've been asking myself but didn't want to post for fear of rolling eyes.
I did begin to think that maybe the guitars aren't so bright as you might think but everything surrounding it is actually less bright leaving your ears to perceive the guitars as being bright because they're perceiving a greater difference in presence . For example I've been listening to cymbals and have found that they are reasonably low in mixes, snares don't have as much attack as what you might dial in when listening to them on their own.