Got a newsletter from an amplifier manufacturer today... Clearly they haven't tried Cygnus! Lol!

boyce89976

boyce89976

Experienced
This is an email newsletter I got today from an amplifier manufacturer. I'm 100% in the Axe III camp!

Does Liking Tubes Make Me Old School?


It’s not just that I’m “old school,” but I prefer tube amps. Sure, many of the new digital amps offer scads of features that are admittedly fun and cool. But, when it comes to the pure player-guitar-amplifier connection, there is nothing like the warmth and tone that tube amplifiers produce.

Vacuum tubes are timeworn technology. Digital amps can almost mimic the sound of a great tube amp … but not quite. The physical transfer of electrons within the tubes, initiated by the electro-magnetic charge transmitted from the guitar pickup can be imitated, but not perfectly digitally reproduced. When the combination of preamp and power tubes shapes the tone you produce over the entire spectrum of volume and distortion, the complex composite of even and odd order harmonics as signal amplitude changes simply cannot be recreated in a digital amp.

This creates the most pleasant overdrive, or distortion, because the predominately even order harmonics reproduced best by tube amps in the richness of their timbre above the note being played, are ideally suited to the human ear. Not to get all “sciency” here, but our tympanic membranes are best able to respond to vibrational frequencies at multiples of a primary tone. So, tube amplifiers at modest overdrive, or distortion (by creating by predominantly even, but also a fraction of odd order harmonics) offer a pleasing experience to the listener because the multiple vibrational frequencies are congruent. One day it may be possible for digital amplifiers to recreate the complex inner workings of vacuum tubes and reproduce a more natural overdrive, or distortion, sound. But, it hasn’t happened yet. The harmonics created with the attack and decay of a note played through a tube amplifier offer a staggering complexity for digital amplifier manufacturers to copy. Because that is what they are doing – taking the recorded sound of a tube amplifier and working to recreate that sound from attack through decay, at a variety of volume levels and tone settings. They have done a fantastic job at getting it close. But, as yet, no cigar.

Indeed, the better your speaker(s) and cabinet, the more you will appreciate the subtle advantages of a tube amplifier. This holds equally true whether you are listening to a live performance, or a recorded performance through speakers or headphones.

Tubes are here to stay. Not because I’m “old school.” Because they sound better.

-Ted
 
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Worrying about whether a modeler perfectly mimics a tube amp is so 2010. If a modeler sounds different than a tube amp, then it's different, not better or worse. Personally, my goal is to get a pleasing sound, without regard for whether it matches some other technology.
 
Not agreeing or disagreeing.

However:

I spent hours/days/weeks/months chasing a 'perfect' tone. Many thousands on different amps, premium tubes, modifications, etc. I was occasionally successful...only to find the next time I fired it up the tone had subtly changed...and off I was on the tweaking train.

I've dialed in a wild number of 'pure amp' tones that are frankly better than most of those I pulled in during those endeavors with the Axe III. Everything you spoke of so eloquently.

I don't speak of equivalency here. If you think tube amps are better, then they're better. But my personal opinion is that I have far more in the AxeIII, and do not feel the lack. Especially when I visit the store to play the tube amp of the minute, and 14 minutes later wish I was in front of my little black box.

And please people, be kind here. Long experience tells me these things tend to spiral out of control.

R
 
electronpirate said:
Not agreeing or disagreeing.

However:

I spent hours/days/weeks/months chasing a 'perfect' tone. Many thousands on different amps, premium tubes, modifications, etc. I was occasionally successful...only to find the next time I fired it up the tone had subtly changed...and off I was on the tweaking train.

I've dialed in a wild number of 'pure amp' tones that are frankly better than most of those I pulled in during those endeavors with the Axe III. Everything you spoke of so eloquently.

I don't speak of equivalency here. If you think tube amps are better, then they're better. But my personal opinion is that I have far more in the AxeIII, and do not feel the lack. Especially when I visit the store to play the tube amp of the minute, and 14 minutes later wish I was in front of my little black box.

And please people, be kind here. Long experience tells me these things tend to spiral out of control.

R
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Hey, man, I'm just posting the email newsletter I received today from BadCat amplifiers... my opinion is in the thread title. ;)
 
Funny thing is Ive seen alot of tube amps for sale on my local craigslist relisted over and over for months on end...most at fair market value... including a bad-cat that nobody wants. On the rare occasion a fractal audio product pops up it's usually gone within a few days...unless they want an unrealistic amount for it. Don't get me wrong....if I had unlimited funds and space I'd probably have 3 of EVERYTHING...including tube amps....kinda like @2112 and his ADA-mp1 collection. 😂🤣😂

Just playing with you Leon....I totally get it. Lol
 
Justincase said:
Funny thing is Ive seen alot of tube amps for sale on my local craigslist relisted over and over for months on end...most at fair market value... including a bad-cat that nobody wants. On the rare occasion a fractal audio product pops up it's usually gone within a few days...unless they want an unrealistic amount for it. Don't get me wrong....if I had unlimited funds and space I'd probably have 3 of EVERYTHING...including tube amps....kinda like @2112 and his ADA-mp1 collection. 😂🤣😂

Just playing with you Leon....I totally get it. Lol
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MP1 was the heart of my rig in the 80's! So good!
 
jaza69 said:
Why LOL? Once they hear Cygnus they should wrap up? Without the amp manufacturers the modelling industry wouldn't have anything to copy the tonez from.

Clearly there is a marked for tube amps. Had a conversation with a buddy, he just wants to plug his guitar into an guitar amp and enjoy the music. Modellers? Too complicated for him.
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As a reformed amp snob myself (Matchless DC30, several BadCat's - a Cub III and 3 others - Welagen SSS, Welagen ODS, Two Rock Emerald, Custom Reverb Signature, Classic Reverb Signature, TS1, Morgan AC20, Benson Monarch, etc...) I just thought it was funny.


(I still have the DC30 and the ODS). ;)
 
These types of conversations are had between a small percentage of the population.

If a tone guru starts talking to someone in the audience, their eyes usually glaze over and look at you as if to say, just play some music.

I personally love tubes and I love the AxeIII and at home often play with them integrated but now at gigs, the amp stays at home as IMHO it's just not needed anymore.
 
I really, really, really enjoy my tube amps. I've never been one for big amps, though back in the day I had a Mesa-Boogie IIb with the 50/100 switch, which was a LOUD, heavy little monster, especially when plugged into a 4x12 cabinet. These days I like a small combo with a 1x12 and somewhere in the 25-ish watt range, something that'll break up the power amp at a reasonable volume, and won't break my back to stick it in the car.

I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY enjoy my FM3 and FX3, because they sound killer and don't want to kill me. Yeah, sure, sometimes they're not dead-on to the sound of a particular amp I'm trying to emulate, but that's my fault because I don't know exactly what to tweak to get there, but they sound really good anyway. My Lone Star preset sounds an awful lot like my Lone Star Special, my Mk IV preset sounds an awful lot like my IIb, and my Imperial Mk II preset sounds real close and is a lot of fun.

I've been playing my real Imperial Mk II a couple times a week for the last couple weeks, and it's a blast, but I still find myself wanting to use my FM3 because it can do that amp, or the Lone Star, or the Mk IV, or a Trainwreck, or... on and on. Yeah, the FM3 + FC6 + two FRFR is a bigger bundle than the tube amp, but the modeler has wooed me and I answered its siren call.

The other day I was talking to my significant-other about amps, because my goal is to reduce the footprint, and told her I'd like to switch both my tube amps to a more expensive, more boutique, tube amp and make that my forever amp. I've got what I consider the best modelers, I really like the FRFRs, I really like my guitars, so the amps are pretty much the final stop in that journey for me. And, she said, sure, do it, you deserve it.

WTF!? WHO ARE YOU!? I... uh... never expected that, but, coooool!

So, there's a little task working my way through that, but I couldn't do it without the FM3 and FX3 as they've become my touchstone, not amps and pedals. I'll get that nice little amp and keep my pedal board for fun, because, yesss, they're my holy grail, and drag them around for über fast setup, and I'll have a modeler when I want to make lots of different sounds, a couple'a guitars that whisper in my ears... it's a nice thing.
 
yek said:
So, what amp will that be?
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Bartel Amplifiers Starwood. I’ve been really happy with the Imperial, and had the Sky King also, and both are wonderful amps. When Bartel left Tone King I started following his startup progress for the new company and his experiments with new cabinets and amp design. He’s shipping the new designs now and I think they’ll be classics.

The Sugarland is the 12 watt little brother but the amp works the same…

 
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Well, I remember seeing Joe Morgan interview on YT, where he said, that at one NAMM, Tosin Abasi came to play one of his amps.

Tosin played that amp, and he was so floored by that "player-guitar-amplifier connection" that he asked Joe, if he could make this exact amp for him, but with FX Loop, as that´s very important for him.

As some time passed, Tosin came again to see Joe to test his prototype amp with FX loop, and suddenly, as Tosin expressed - there was NO MORE this "player-guitar-amplifier connection".

Joe explained in this video, that he makes as simple amps as possible, because every additional circuit in analog signal path downgrade the final sound quite a bit, to the point where you have loss of this "connection mojo". :confused:

I had in my possesion many over engineered amps in the past, like Mesa Boogie Road King II, Diezel VH4, Friedman BE Deluxe´s, etc.
I always felt like there is some sound loss in my Road King, maybe because of all those sh*t loads of circuitry, dunno really.
But as soon as I got my ax3, I could clearly hear, how much better it sounded and felt.
I could feel the difference, my ax3 can now breathe a lot more compared to my "real deal" tube amps.

I have this idea in my head, that this could be partly because of that digital recreation, where singal degradation doesn´t exist.
I have read on this forum, where Cliff said, that he doesn´t model that extra unwanted noise, which real amp produces, etc.

Conclusion : because of that, I feel like fractal products are superior to the real amps.
You can put so much in your signal chain and it´s still super transparent and 100% I can feel that "connection".
Try to do that with your over engineered amp, connect your favourite FX unit to it in 4CM and notice, how those "flow of electrons makes ya happy" lol. :smile:
 
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I have tube amps and modelers. I like the simplicity and ease of use of a good tube amp into a good cab. No menus, just a few knobs to deal with. When I can play loud, that's my first port of call. I feel it helps me focus more on playing and less on trying to craft the perfect sound or "just one more tweak".

When I can't play loud or for recording I go to my FM3. It's pretty great to work with as long as it's hooked up to a computer and some studio monitors or headphones. I dislike it as a hardware only product though, just don't like working with it from the front panel.

I have also tried the FM3 through my Fryette PS-100 into real guitar cabs. While that's fun, it highlights how important the cab is and makes having 200+ amp models very much pointless when the cab defines so much of the sound in the end.

To me it's not about whether tube amps sound better or not but there is an experience to tube amps sort of like vinyl vs CD. My mind tells me that modelers are more practical, more versatilee tc but I still really enjoy the experience of plugging into a real amp and cab.
 
laxu said:
I have tube amps and modelers. I like the simplicity and ease of use of a good tube amp into a good cab. No menus, just a few knobs to deal with. When I can play loud, that's my first port of call. I feel it helps me focus more on playing and less on trying to craft the perfect sound or "just one more tweak".

When I can't play loud or for recording I go to my FM3. It's pretty great to work with as long as it's hooked up to a computer and some studio monitors or headphones. I dislike it as a hardware only product though, just don't like working with it from the front panel.

I have also tried the FM3 through my Fryette PS-100 into real guitar cabs. While that's fun, it highlights how important the cab is and makes having 200+ amp models very much pointless when the cab defines so much of the sound in the end.
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If you have one great cab, all those 200+ amp models sounds glorious - that´s my case anyway.
My cab is Friedman 4x12 with 2x celestion alnico creams and 2x celetion redbacks - that combination works for all styles and tonezz for days :)
 
Thomas Obester said:
If you have one great cab, all those 200+ amp models sounds glorious - that´s my case anyway.
My cab is Friedman 4x12 with 2x celestion alnico creams and 2x celetion redbacks - that combination works for all styles and tonezz for days :)
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Sure, but the differences between those amp models also shrink to different flavors so having that many amp models becomes less relevant. So for me chasing that "cab in the room" sound with modelers is not the way to go unless you have a cab switcher and a pile of cabs. Easier to just use cab sims and FRFR systems.

With the two tube amps I have, pairing them with a cab that works great for them is just as important as choosing the right IRs in the virtual realm. My Victory VC35 sounds much best through my open back 1x12 with Eminence Maverick whereas my Bogner GF45 Superlead is in its element through my 4x10 with 10" Greenbacks. Swapping the cabs they still both sound great but with the above cab setup I feel they really shine.

Amp modeling is so good nowadays that it can easily replace tube amps but the output system is still the key thing in how good it sounds. So many will compare two totally different output systems and then deduce that it must be the amp modeling that is at fault if one doesn't sound as good or better to them.

I'm looking forward to what the future will bring in the output system and cab sim area as we are getting into diminishing returns with amp modeling. There's some valiant efforts like the Line6 Powercab and Kemper Kone that are supposed to sort of bridge the gap between FRFR and how a rather directional cab sounds in a room but I haven't tried either so can't say how well they work but ultimately they can't turn into a 1x12, 2x12 or 4x12 at the flick of a switch like traditional cab sim IRs can.
 
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