The way I see it, you have a couple of options:
1. Build three slightly different versions of each patch (or just adjust one patch constantly for the circumstances) - one for live gig-level playing, one for satisfying low-level, playing at home volumes and the third for sitting well in a recorded mix.
2. Adjust the Global EQ to tame the frequencies causing the issue with the Q12a and keep all patches constant - you will also have to adjust the global eq for the direct out to FOH of that's the way you're going.
I chose to go with the latter, but still tend to brighten patches up slightly for recording purposes. Basically I have eq'd OUT 1 for our P.A (at gig volume) and separately eq'd OUT 2 for the Q12a (also at gig volume).
I then simply change the global eq's to flat for home playing and re eq them for live work - fairly simple.
If you are interested - for the Q12a, I do the following on the global EQ:
63 = -4.3db
125 = -5db
500 = +4db
4k = -6.5db
8k = -3.7db
This tends to equate to roughly what I'm hearing at home volumes, relatively speaking.
For the P.A (Mackie SRM 450's with sub):
125 = +2.5db
4k = -5db
8k = -4.8db
As you can see - even though they are both supposedly FRFR speakers, they still need to be eq'd differently.
For me, the big breakthrough came when I tamed the 4k frequency when going FRFR - I think you might find that this is the one you are referring to which has the high-mid nastiness at high volumes, cut back a little of the 8k and maybe add a mid-range hump and you'll possibly find yourself in similar territory to your amp.
Try it on the eq page of the amp block and see if it works for you
I'm happy to share patches with you if necessary
I hope this helps!
Reading posts like this and this whole topic and similar topics that keep coming on and on really make me feel like loosing my faith in FRFR. By reading this you feel like you have to be some sort of science doctor to make it sound right. If you have to make this much effort to make it sound right is it all worth it? Don't get me wrong I love my Axe fx and most of the time I am happy with the results I get with guitar cabs and also with my monitor sound at home and love it for recordings but reading this and many other similar topics that you see all the time here don't make me want to jump into FRFR for live purposes.
I agree with the above FAS remark that FRFR might not be the route for everybody.
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My approach to get more guitar cab feel out of FRFR is another: Set the FRFR so, that the speaker will blast in the same direction, as a guitar cab will do. Normally a guitar cab ( let`s say a 2x12") will stand on the floor, speakers blast horizontal through your knees. so you hear the guitar Cabinet in most circumstances extremely off axis! Also the dispersion of a classical guitar speaker is much smaller than on a FRFR Monitor, especially the highs.
If you setup your FRFR Monitor the same, you may wanted to correct now the frequency response, because you loose much of the FRFR Pardigm, while hearing the FRFR Monitor also extremely Off axis - to much, as the wider dispersion of the beam (in reference to guitar cab) can compensate. For this, the CLR has the BL-filter as a generic correction. I much prefer a FFT room correction, but anyhow....
The difference hearing the Monitor OFF AXIS like a Guitar cabinet or "On Axis" in a Wedge position, beaming straight to your ears will make a big difference in "cabinet in the room" experience. While hearing Off Axis your ears will get much more room reflections in relation to the direct beam of the speaker!
That said, a small difference will always stay, because of different dispersions, Volume of the Box, resonance of the box, etc...
(...)
The "right" IR, monitoring FRFR in a OFF AXIS position and for that a correction of the frequency response brings me to very satisfying results, when it comes to "Cabinet in the room feel" with FRFR.
If the FRFR Monitor itself is no crap, this could be a way to try, if you want to get this "cab-feel" out of your FRFR.
Personally i use a Matrix Q12a and a old db M12-4 and i get really satisfying results out of both ...
It really depends on what your attention is on when playing gigs. I only gigged a few times with a real amp and switched to the Axe soon after, so I don't actually miss anything here - because I never got used to it in the first place.Reading posts like this and this whole topic and similar topics that keep coming on and on really make me feel like loosing my faith in FRFR. By reading this you feel like you have to be some sort of science doctor to make it sound right. If you have to make this much effort to make it sound right is it all worth it? Don't get me wrong I love my Axe fx and most of the time I am happy with the results I get with guitar cabs and also with my monitor sound at home and love it for recordings but reading this and many other similar topics that you see all the time here don't make me want to jump into FRFR for live purposes.
This is true, definitely. But I think it helps to think about why you actually got the Axe in the first place - to have a portable all-in-one solution. Not using all the advantages it offers would be such a waste.I agree with the above FAS remark that FRFR might not be the route for everybody.
Reading posts like this and this whole topic and similar topics that keep coming on and on really make me feel like loosing my faith in FRFR. By reading this you feel like you have to be some sort of science doctor to make it sound right. If you have to make this much effort to make it sound right is it all worth it? Don't get me wrong I love my Axe fx and most of the time I am happy with the results I get with guitar cabs and also with my monitor sound at home and love it for recordings but reading this and many other similar topics that you see all the time here don't make me want to jump into FRFR for live purposes.
I agree with the above FAS remark that FRFR might not be the route for everybody.
Here's what I did when I first got my ultra....
1) I hired a rehearsal space for 4 hrs, took some high quality backings, laptop, AXE edit and my Ultra, Matrix and speakers and tweaked at band volumes, facing my speakers until I had some thing that worked. I also ran a separate output to the PA and tweaked the global outs until the FOH sound was ok.
2) I got together with a jam band of players who like to tweak their gear and further refined the patches.
3) I did the same thing at rehearsals with a band.
4) I made notes as to what worked at gigs and what didn't; tweaked at the next rehearsal and tested next gig.
5) I did this for patches for all the guitars that I own
It's a bit of work but I have now have patches that are optimized for live playing, for each individual guitar and sometimes for front or back pups. The result is that I can walk out the door, grab any guitar I fancy for the day and I'll have a bank of 10 or so live patches that work.
For practice at home I don't need to have an exact reproduction of my live cab sound. Straight into the mixer, roll on a little top and bottom for low volume practice and I'm good.
Failure to do this is why I think so many people get frustrated with any complex rig, Not just modelers. I used to do the same thing with my Quad preamp/A3/Tube power amp rig as well.
Reading posts like this and this whole topic and similar topics that keep coming on and on really make me feel like loosing my faith in FRFR. By reading this you feel like you have to be some sort of science doctor to make it sound right. If you have to make this much effort to make it sound right is it all worth it? Don't get me wrong I love my Axe fx and most of the time I am happy with the results I get with guitar cabs and also with my monitor sound at home and love it for recordings but reading this and many other similar topics that you see all the time here don't make me want to jump into FRFR for live purposes.
I agree with the above FAS remark that FRFR might not be the route for everybody.
A simple ON/OFF per Global GEQ would help. Or some "global EQ presets" for Home / Rehearsal / FOH or something ...Ps, it would be an awesome feature to have two or more global EQ settings. I guess I could use a GEQ Block per patch and make it global
Reading posts like this and this whole topic and similar topics that keep coming on and on really make me feel like loosing my faith in FRFR. By reading this you feel like you have to be some sort of science doctor to make it sound right. If you have to make this much effort to make it sound right is it all worth it? Don't get me wrong I love my Axe fx and most of the time I am happy with the results I get with guitar cabs and also with my monitor sound at home and love it for recordings but reading this and many other similar topics that you see all the time here don't make me want to jump into FRFR for live purposes.
I agree with the above FAS remark that FRFR might not be the route for everybody.
I'm still trying to get FRFR....but I just don't have any idea why things sound the way they do, haha.
I'm currently kind of AB-ing my FRFR rig to my pedals/amp rig.
I'm running a Deluxe reverb with volume at 3.5, bass @ 5, and treble @ 5.
Then, I'm running my axe into a matrix Q12a.
The FRFR just has different frequencies, particularly a MUCH, MUCH, more pronounced midrange. For example, when I pick hard on the D string, open, I get a really high pitched frequency with much more bite, per se, in the FRFR than I do through the combo amp.
I'm literally running my mids and treble of my amp models at 2.5 & 2.5, with low prescense, AND running a PEQ pre-cab with high and low passes (blocking).
Yet I get this SUPER pronounced, mid range & trebly bite.
I'm running a very bright guitar, but I've never thought of my Deluxe reverb as being super dark; everything is just so much harsher in the FRFR and I'm not really sure how to get rid of some of these frequencies, considering I'm already running a PEQ and actually EQing everything super low. (every amp, I usually leave controls around 5. but with my axe and FRFR, leaving things at 5 is insanely bright)
Amp models I'm trying to use are the Fender Double verb, deluxe verb, and Friedman BE.
What do you guys think? This gig is a duo thing, and it's really laid back, so I thought about bringing my Axe and trying to really dial in my tones between our sets/even songs, but yeah. Any tips on the whole FRFR thing? I know I'm not supposed to get my FRFR to sound like a guitar cab, but it's going to be backlining me hopefully at a lot of gigs, and I'd like for it to sound sort of good/not harsh on stage..
Ben
Before you give up on FRFR, and Cliff's correct - it's just not right for some folks (at the very least it requires a shift in perspective that might take some time to feel like it's a good thing), you should try another FRFR monitor.
I had a chance a few days ago to A/B my presets through my CLR and a Q12/GT1000 rig.
The Q12 simply didn't sound very good with my presets which are dialed in to sound pretty nice through studio monitors and the CLR.
The Q12 was exceptionally bright and didn't have much bottom end.
I had to use extreme Global EQ settings to get the Q12 sounding anything like the CLR.
I know the Matrix FRFR cabs have a real good rep around here, but that was my experience.
If you are going to continue using the Q12a then be sure to boost the bottom end and cut the top end - a lot - post Cab Block.
that was my experience too, compared to my rcf's. i didn't like them at all. they're not totally flat response. i'm sure people are getting great tones out of them, but a/b-ing them with other monitors was a bit of an ear-opener...in my opinion...