Going to try FRFR again at a gig, but why is everything sounding so harsh?

yek said:
Cliff: "The presets were dialed in loud so as to be sure the Fletcher-Munson effect did not influence the sound."
http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-discussion/75538-fw-11-03-preset-question.html#post922986
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Thanks Yek, but Cliff doesn't elaborate on what "loud" actually means. Certainly, when I turn up the stock (default) amp tones to the level I normally rehearse/gig at, the highs are often way too harsh, and the bass can tend to sound flubby, boxy or balanced, depending on the amp.
 
The OP may be dealing with expectations coming from a Deluxe and a Twin. Being Fenders, they inherently have a scooped tone. Plus the fact that FRFR has a tweeter that guitar amps don't have. You have to adjust your perceptions. Rolling off the highs and finding a darker IR is a good starting point.
 
i tried to load the preset, but it came up blank (i'm still on 12.02)

a few people have commented that the Q12 is a bright speaker. you could simply adjust the global eq to compensate. if you have some studio monitors, or even a decent stereo, plug them in and see if you get different results. somebody try the patch for him.
 
I had brightness horrors for a little while before I became comfortable with EQ'ing the treble down A LOT when using any FRFR. In the global EQ I put down everything above 2k by about 3db and the sound I get is what I expect from an amp. Not much tweaking after that.
 
I had a few minutes to take a quick look,
I loaded up the Friedman Rig.... IMO your main problem is 100% the PEQ settings. when engaged, sounds all nasal like it's out of phase.
The doubleverb sounded ok, but weak, like no gain, no sustain. I suspect the cab IR isn't helping.

For me, I would start over, find a stock preset and tweak it to my liking.
 
Here's a little update:

I ended up gigging the Axe with the Q12a. It actually did alright. I sounded much worse than my amp tone, but as I mentioned, it was a low pressure gig.

The main thing I didn't like was the nasally, mid range quality, which could be my PEQ or just a characteristic of the Friedman amp. I'm used to a more american style clean with some boosts to dirt things up. I enjoyed the lead sound for certain songs with the friedman, but it didn't really work out as an all purpose amp.

The brightness wasn't much of a factor; I was using the Q12a as a backline style 'combo' so my ear wasn't right in the speaker. I didn't notice it sounding too harsh or anything out of the house. But I was dialing the treble WAY down. Lots of tweaking left, but I was satisfied that I didn't completely botch the gig with poor sound. However, I will say that my presets/ sounds had a weird quality to them. Didn't sound natural.

As I mentioned, the PEQ was something Yek posted, but he had a midrange hump and I didn't care for that at all, so I flattened that out. Maybe I should just use a simple graphic EQ to dial down some lows/highs instead of using the PEQ. The double verb...I can't coax ANY sustain or gain out of it, without having it sound unnatural. I dial up the input game or hit it with pedals and it just doesn't sound good. Maybe I need to lower the master volume? I only have reissues, so they don't even have the MV. I've yet to find any good doubleverb sounds I like, and I'm more inclined to roll with that amp early, since I use a twin & deluxe.

IDK, the BE just sounded too nasally and midrangy for my tastes, I wonder if it's a combination of the amp sort of being that flavor and maybe the PEQ that I'm using. IDK. A tiny step forward but a TON of dialing in left...
 
bgrizzmayne said:
The brightness wasn't much of a factor; I was using the Q12a as a backline style 'combo' so my ear wasn't right in the speaker. I didn't notice it sounding too harsh or anything out of the house. But I was dialing the treble WAY down. Lots of tweaking left, but I was satisfied that I didn't completely botch the gig with poor sound. However, I will say that my presets/ sounds had a weird quality to them. Didn't sound natural.
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I'm fairly sure that the weird nasal sound was happening because you were so aggressive with your high cut in the amp block. It didn't help that you were also cutting the highs with the PEQ as well so really all you left yourself with was midrange.

To be honest I think part of the problem is that you're tweaking them too much. I ditched the PEQ, GEQ, Mixer, moved the delays so they were after the cab, removed the hi/low cut from the cab and instantly it sounded better. After changing to a better IR and adjusting the EQ on the amp it sounded - to my ears anyway - far far better than what you started with.

My suggestion... Simplify. Start with an amp and a cab. Stay away from the advanced parameters or anything you wouldn't find on a real amp and just fool around with the EQ and IR until you get a GOOD base tone. From there you can add whatever you need, but if you're not getting a good tone with nothing more than those two blocks then it's time to start again.

I know guys like Yek and Fremen use PEQ, GEQ, Multiband Comp, the Mixer and the kitchen sink, but if you load up any one of their patches and turn everything off but the amp and cab you'll find that what you're left with is still a good and completely useable tone.

Also when cutting your highs and lows I'd suggest being a little less aggressive with it also try to avoid doubling up. You don't need to add cut in the cab block and then later in a PEQ.

Edit: Beware of using your FRFR speaker backline style. All it does is insure that you're hearing something completely different from what your audience is hearing.
 
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After getting the new OH IR's Mix set, I stopped cutting the lo/hi from the Cab Block. Sounds much better at gig volume and sits well in the mix.

What convinced me on FRFR was not so much how my guitar sounded through them, but how they blended with the rest of the band. Once I heard how well it sat in the mix, I was sold.

-PJ
 
Talus said:
I'm fairly sure that the weird nasal sound was happening because you were so aggressive with your high cut in the amp block. It didn't help that you were also cutting the highs with the PEQ as well so really all you left yourself with was midrange.

To be honest I think part of the problem is that you're tweaking them too much. I ditched the PEQ, GEQ, Mixer, moved the delays so they were after the cab, removed the hi/low cut from the cab and instantly it sounded better. After changing to a better IR and adjusting the EQ on the amp it sounded - to my ears anyway - far far better than what you started with.

My suggestion... Simplify. Start with an amp and a cab. Stay away from the advanced parameters or anything you wouldn't find on a real amp and just fool around with the EQ and IR until you get a GOOD base tone. From there you can add whatever you need, but if you're not getting a good tone with nothing more than those two blocks then it's time to start again.

I know guys like Yek and Fremen use PEQ, GEQ, Multiband Comp, the Mixer and the kitchen sink, but if you load up any one of their patches and turn everything off but the amp and cab you'll find that what you're left with is still a good and completely useable tone.

Also when cutting your highs and lows I'd suggest being a little less aggressive with it also try to avoid doubling up. You don't need to add cut in the cab block and then later in a PEQ.

Edit: Beware of using your FRFR speaker backline style. All it does is insure that you're hearing something completely different from what your audience is hearing.
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Thanks for the reply, Talus. I felt like the patch was still too bright after simple EQing, so I added in the PEQ. Maybe I'm doubling up.

The arrangement of the patch was that way because I was sort of just riffing off of a Yek patch/organization. In other patches, I typically have run the delays after the cab in parallel, and the reverb in stereo.
Can you expand on your post about the backline'd style FRFR? When I listened through just FRFR (turned my output 2 all the way down) and then listened to just my backline FRFR, they sounded fairly similar. If I shouldn't do something like that, what should I use to fill the room a bit? I guess I could go with a poweramp + cab solution, but I got the FRFR monitor so I could provide some stage volume for quieter venues when the PA & stage volume are used in conjunction.
 
No need to go for a power amp and cab solution at all!

I think the poster was trying to say that if you're going to EQ the FRFR speaker to sound different than the front of house, it won't give you a true representation of what the audience is hearing.
What we are simply trying to achieve here, is to EQ the Q12a, so that it does sound similar to FOH. As I mentioned earlier, I also EQ the FOH system via the global eq for 'live' levels, all be it slightly differently to compensate for the different speakers.

I just loaded both patches and played them at a pretty reasonable volume through my Q12A, using the exact global EQ i posted earlier - without changing a thing in your patches. Both sounded fine to my ears although pretty bright with a flat global EQ at those volumes as expected.

I really and truly believe that the 4k frequency is the real offender hear and needs to be quite drastically tamed (along with 8k to a lesser extent) through the Q12A.

I'd also be looking to simplify the routing in those patches. Start with amp + cab and take it from there - I have no need for peq's, high/low cut's etc with the global eq settings I posted.


Seriously - try it out!!
 
bgrizzmayne said:
.... Haha, I'm up at pretty good volumes and this the brightest patch I've ever loaded. Holy crap, my ears...
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Just for culture, how much dB is "pretty good volumes to you", for testing I mean, and what is the size of the room you're testing your setup in at this volume ? I use this patch at band/bar level, ie definitely not at 30kW PA size level, and at least it appears to give satisfaction, but maybe people have just been kind for the past 2 years..shit happens ;-)). But if you are testing your setup at 110dB in a toilet bowl, it could be normal that the unit might sound harsh...
 
Daribo said:
No need to go for a power amp and cab solution at all!

I think the poster was trying to say that if you're going to EQ the FRFR speaker to sound different than the front of house, it won't give you a true representation of what the audience is hearing.
What we are simply trying to achieve here, is to EQ the Q12a, so that it does sound similar to FOH. As I mentioned earlier, I also EQ the FOH system via the global eq for 'live' levels, all be it slightly differently to compensate for the different speakers.

I just loaded both patches and played them at a pretty reasonable volume through my Q12A, using the exact global EQ i posted earlier - without changing a thing in your patches. Both sounded fine to my ears although pretty bright with a flat global EQ at those volumes as expected.

I really and truly believe that the 4k frequency is the real offender hear and needs to be quite drastically tamed (along with 8k to a lesser extent) through the Q12A.

I'd also be looking to simplify the routing in those patches. Start with amp + cab and take it from there - I have no need for peq's, high/low cut's etc with the global eq settings I posted.


Seriously - try it out!!
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Thanks for the replies, Daribo. I'll give your global EQ settings a go. As I noted, my Suhr S-4 is notoriously bright, so further DB's of taming might even need to occur.

I get what everyone's saying about simplifying routing, but my knowledge of routing isn't really affecting anything, other than maybe where to put certain effects. I've got a pretty firm grasp on how to route and set up presets within presets, but obviously the meat and potatoes of all that routing is the amp and cab block. So while setting up just an amp and cab wouldn't be bad, it's not going to make that much of a difference. I created a few preset templates, and then don't mess with effects at all- I just work on the amp and cab. I know why everyone is suggesting that though- sometimes it's easy to focus in when the patch is simpler. So sorry if that sounded a bit defensive, hah.

Also, Daribo, I wasn't using the PEQ for my monitor and then leaving FOH flat. I've been running everything to the Q12a that isend to FOH, including the PEQ'd signal or whatever. Obviously, an FRFR is supposed to be an accurate representation of what FOH is getting, so I definitely don't think i'd EQ things differently for my Q12a, unless I knew for a fact that the Q12a is way brighter than the particular PA we'd use. Since it's FRFR, I dont think that'd be the case.
 
I have Suhr's. Try to back off on your guitars tone control. Might help if you have stainless steel frets or not.
 
bgrizzmayne said:
Thanks for the reply, Talus. I felt like the patch was still too bright after simple EQing, so I added in the PEQ. Maybe I'm doubling up.

The arrangement of the patch was that way because I was sort of just riffing off of a Yek patch/organization. In other patches, I typically have run the delays after the cab in parallel, and the reverb in stereo.
Can you expand on your post about the backline'd style FRFR? When I listened through just FRFR (turned my output 2 all the way down) and then listened to just my backline FRFR, they sounded fairly similar. If I shouldn't do something like that, what should I use to fill the room a bit? I guess I could go with a poweramp + cab solution, but I got the FRFR monitor so I could provide some stage volume for quieter venues when the PA & stage volume are used in conjunction.
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At that point I would start looking for an IR with either less or a smoother top end. If you're still not satisfied then a different amp is probably in order. There's absolutely no sense in trying to force an amp that isn't working for you into working for you. Use your ears not your eyes, while you may be dead set on playing a Fender Twin, a Fender Twin may simply not offer you what you desire.

Like everyone else on these forums I would highly recommend any of the Ownhammer IRs. The Bogner 2x12 is my personal favorite and I think with your desire for a smoother top end it might fit the bill nicely. Still, if you don't want to spend any money you really can't go wrong with the Basketweave mixes. For cleans I really like the 4x10 Bassman mix. Remember, you don't need to use a Fender Twin IR with a Fender Twin amp... You can use absolutely anything you want. You can also mix in mics to IRs with mics already baked in.

As far as backlining your speaker; you've got to remember most of the audience will have the speakers aimed directly at them, so the sound of your speaker aimed directly at you will be the sound they hear. Different speakers spread differently, but even my CLR sounds a little different if it's aimed directly at me as opposed to at my ankles backline style. Depending on the speaker the difference between on-axis and off-axis may be minimal or it may be fairly drastic. It's not something you shouldn't do, it's just something you should keep in mind.
 
Thanks, Cliff. Unfortunately, that requires an additional investment of a fair bit of $$$....I don't have a guitar cabinet at the moment. but it is what it is. The idea of FRFR and using all the IR's to dial in is an awesome/great one....

Maybe with more work, I can figure this FRFR thing out. IDK
 
Talus said:
At that point I would start looking for an IR with either less or a smoother top end. If you're still not satisfied then a different amp is probably in order. There's absolutely no sense in trying to force an amp that isn't working for you into working for you. Use your ears not your eyes, while you may be dead set on playing a Fender Twin, a Fender Twin may simply not offer you what you desire.

Like everyone else on these forums I would highly recommend any of the Ownhammer IRs. The Bogner 2x12 is my personal favorite and I think with your desire for a smoother top end it might fit the bill nicely. Still, if you don't want to spend any money you really can't go wrong with the Basketweave mixes. For cleans I really like the 4x10 Bassman mix. Remember, you don't need to use a Fender Twin IR with a Fender Twin amp... You can use absolutely anything you want. You can also mix in mics to IRs with mics already baked in.

As far as backlining your speaker; you've got to remember most of the audience will have the speakers aimed directly at them, so the sound of your speaker aimed directly at you will be the sound they hear. Different speakers spread differently, but even my CLR sounds a little different if it's aimed directly at me as opposed to at my ankles backline style. Depending on the speaker the difference between on-axis and off-axis may be minimal or it may be fairly drastic. It's not something you shouldn't do, it's just something you should keep in mind.
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For sure. The Q12a was sitting on an amp stand, so not entirely 'backline'. That's also how I dialed it in at home, sitting on an amp stand while I was standing up.
 
bgrizzmayne said:
Thanks for the replies, Daribo. I'll give your global EQ settings a go. As I noted, my Suhr S-4 is notoriously bright, so further DB's of taming might even need to occur.

Also, Daribo, I wasn't using the PEQ for my monitor and then leaving FOH flat. I've been running everything to the Q12a that I send to FOH, including the PEQ'd signal or whatever. Obviously, an FRFR is supposed to be an accurate representation of what FOH is getting, so I definitely don't think i'd EQ things differently for my Q12a, unless I knew for a fact that the Q12a is way brighter than the particular PA we'd use. Since it's FRFR, I dont think that'd be the case.
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I wasn't suggesting you were EQ'ing FOH and the Q12A differently, but I would say you might need to. I appreciate that you would assume (as I did) that the same global EQ settings should be used for FOH and the Q12A as they are both supposedly FRFR type systems, but my ears have told me otherwise, hence the slightly different global EQ's I have. They may not work for you of course, but at least it's dialled in for your exact speaker.

This yields the same sound for my ears with the Q12A and FOH now - I'm not trying to make the Q12 sound different, but at the end of the day, it's a 12" speaker in a square wooden box - I'm sure a 12" speaker in a slightly bigger/smaller wooden box would sound a bit different even if it was still FRFR.

I spent a long time (weeks/months) dialling in and refining my patches through the P.A without having the Q12A, in a full mix context. I am confident that the front of house sounds good at most venues without any tweaking. In my simple mind, I just needed an eq that would get the Q12A to sound satisfying and similar to FOH which with the same EQ settings (to my ears anyway), it did not.

I have not personally been tempted (yet..) to jump on the Ownhammer IR's etc, as I have so much choice and have been happy with results within the Axe FX offerings as they are. I personally don't want another goodness-knows-how-many options thrown in the mix to confuse me further - it's been a steep enough learning curve as it is - time for some playing!

Best of luck - I hope the global EQ helps, even if it isn't to your taste.
 
Also - for what it's worth, I'm using a Custom Shop '63 Strat, which is also fairly bright.

I have a couple of patches saved that are eq'd within the preset to work at gig levels with the Q12a (no global eq needed) - I don't use them anymore because I decided to just have one patch for each sound and adjust the global eq (or not) for the situation as mentioned earlier. Way to dark to record direct with - live use only.

I'd be happy to share them with you though, if you feel it might help?
 
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