Gig with the Axe last night - advice needed re: output routing

Ugly Bunny

Ugly Bunny

Power User
EDIT: Title changed to be less click-baity :D

Let me start of by saying that I got my FC6 yesterday afternoon and within 5 minutes I was set up and ready to go for the gig with a whole button to spare! The firmware sounds amazing and I've never sounded better :)

Now, on to the frustrating part, and I'd like some advice. I play acoustic, electric, and keys, for reference.

From home, to rehearsal, to some gigs where I run mono, to others where I run stereo, to some situations where I go FOH and have no stage monitor (other than what they feed me), to others where I go FOH but ALSO have a stage monitor (EV ZLX12p), to some gigs where I plug my keyboard INTO my Axe, I juts don't know how to set up my presets' outputs to handle all these situations. I almost have so diverse of needs that I would need to have copies of all the presets with different output blocks created and panned and routed specific to that situation.

But then, if say I need to reduce the gain on my KoT in one scene, then I'd need to go through all of them and do it (unless I link globally) - but then if there's one where I DON'T need to change anything, then globals isn't an ideal solution.

So I'd like the community's advice on the best way to handle this. I realize that there's no way to get around having to manually change the Setup > I/O > Output settings every time, but I'd rather be able to work with JUST the preset or two that are my main gigging/practice/kitchen sink presets and not have to worry that, oops, because of my routing mistake, now we can't find why my guitar, which should have been on tracks 9/10, are now coming through on 11/12 and in order to fix that, now I don't have monitors and my acoustic is suddenly too quiet.

Could this maybe be a wish-list thing? Like have "Output Presets" or something? Not even sure exactly how this could work, but I'm just trying to save myself the mid-song frustration and all that that I dealt with last night. I'm gonna dive back in today following last night's gig and see if I can't come up with a workable plan. Maybe I'm just expecting too much from a single preset? How do you folks handle this scenario? Sorry for the long post :)
 
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FractalAudio said:
Use the same KoT channel in all scenes. Done.
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Haha, yeah, I know that's one option, but that was more or less just an example. But you've done such a wonderful job on it that I have created a "Yellow Side" block in my library and a "Red Side" block; so I use multiple channels already (or maybe multiple blocks - not sure off hand).

I think I may end up going the multiple-preset route and globally linking some of the blocks. Then, I can use the 6th unused button on the FC to choose the layout that corresponds to the presets that work for the situation I'm in.

Seriously, man, I don't have to tell you how great of a piece of gear you've created here :) I think the fallout from that is that we start to believe that we're omnipotent as guitarists and try to come up with scenarios that would have been completely unheard of 10, 20, 30 years ago. Sometimes kinda makes me want to just bring a guitar, a cable, and an amp and let the sound man figure out the rest lol!
 
Going the multiple presets route is best

Have the red groups be tweaked and levelled at stage volume for live

Have the yellow be studio
 
But, now that I think about that’s not what I would do. I just have my main preset, then I make a copy of it for a new venue. Then I just tweak it as needed at sound check.
 
I don't want to invalidate your experience, but your post title "Super frustrating gig with the Axe last night" seems like a way to hook people into reading your post while making it sound like the Axe is at fault. You do clarify in your post that it is the complexity of your setup.

Given your complex rig with its many variants, it might be helpful to analyze all of your scenarios first on paper and lay out all the routings (indep of Axe considerations) and once that is clear ask for advice on how to put it in the Axe. There may be 20 different ways to handle it, each with pros/cons. Perhaps this can be frustrating because the Axe platform doesn't force one (limited) approach.

I know you are not actually knocking the Axe/FAS, but sometimes a bit of homework before implementation can help. Hope this doesn't come across as a-holey. ;)
 
Tahoebrian5 said:
single preset with multiple output blocks
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That's what I do have; but given the number of possible scenarios and venues and monitoring and whatnot, it may not be possible to have everything I need in terms of outputs in a single preset.

unix-guy said:
Hence the user name
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Ha, yeah, I used to be the bassist for a band called "Decree" when I was in college and that's just stuck with me ever since. I don't like it, but it's easy. I have a nice Carvin bass (SB5000) but really, I haven't played bass in years :)

yyz67 said:
seems like a way to hook people
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You're absolutely right. Clickbait, baby! And yeah, you do kinda sound a-holey, like you're all mad about being lured here by my title and then disappointed and then telling me to do homework, which presumes I haven't done any... but I'm a bit of an a-hole myself, so I'm not butt hurt and I think we're still friends :)
I will say that I have done LOTS of homework and continue to read about my gear and work with it on a daily basis. I'm not the guy you're gonna see asking how to hook up something simple like 4CM or whatever. I've been doing this long enough... I've just never used this particular piece of gear in these constantly changing scenarios, that's the big thing. I know all about routing outputs and panning and all that, just a matter of doing it the best way possible.

All this is to say that I'm gonna work on this today and if I come up with something mind-blowingly clever, I'll come share with all you peeps :D
 
Set all presets up for the capability of plugging in your keyboard. Set them all up for stereo, but if running mono, use only one cable out of the Axe (assuming you’re not hard panning any fundamental tone information). Now your Presets work in every situation.

Or use a small mixer to handle all the different configurations. I take a QSC TouchMix 16 with me to every gig. I save the channel config and EQs (mostly monitor and main outputs) for each venue and just call them up wherever I am. I have different duo partners weekly and have different mixer scenes/shows for each. My Axe presets don’t change at all, though the gig setup changes every time. You can use any mixer, that’s just my choice currently.
 
Run sounds on separate rows into a global mixer block before each output block. Be consistent among presets like like Mixer 1 for Out 1, etc.

Adjust mixer levels and output mode as needed in one preset, save. You can keep I/O output setting on stereo and just use the mixer output mode parameter.

Mono-summing issues (disappearing delay w/ phase reverse on, general effect mix problems) could potentially be tackled with an Ext Ctrl as modifier on certain parameters. Then use the Ext Ctrl's init. value in I/O menu to make the effects mono-compatible when needed.
 
Bakerman said:
Run sounds on separate rows into a global mixer block before each output block. Be consistent among presets like like Mixer 1 for Out 1, etc.

Adjust mixer levels and output mode as needed in one preset, save. You can keep I/O output setting on stereo and just use the mixer output mode parameter.
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I'm not sure I fully understand this, but it seems that you're suggesting to just have one stereo output but route everything through a mixer block internally; is this correct?

I think my issue is that I need to have separate outputs for the acoustic and for the electric, as well as send both of those to my monitor, as well as have everything come out of Output 1 for my home since I use SPDIF out (which is Output 1; so that ties that up). They keyboards are sort of a different issue since I CAN just plug it directly into my interface at home as well as at gigs, and I can run a separate line to my monitor - so we can pretend keys aren't even a consideration.

And, Ideally, the outputs that go to the board should be XLR, but only outputs 1 and 2 meet that criteria, but again, with output 1 being tied up with SPDIF, I have to make other plans.

Ugh. i think I'm getting there. I think I may need a direct box or two in order to feed the sound man my acoustic (using a 1/4" output) and keys (also with 1/4" outputs). I think i've got it figured out for when we use our own PA where I can go stereo 1/4" out for electric, mono XLR out for acoustic, and 1/4" stereo out from my keys direct to FOH. Then I can use use output 4 to route everything to my monitor as well.

I definitely appreciate everyone's inputs.

As I mentioned in my first response to Cliff, the problem with such a powerful machine is that it basically encourages us to push the envelope - and it's possible to push it too far sometimes and expect more than the unit can deliver - which is no fault of FAS' :)
 
decreebass said:
I'm not sure I fully understand this, but it seems that you're suggesting to just have one stereo output but route everything through a mixer block internally; is this correct?
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No, I meant you can have a separate mixer block for each (stereo) output block to get whatever mono/stereo mixdown you want at each output. That's up to 4 mixer blocks for 8 total output channels.
 
Bakerman said:
No, I meant you can have a separate mixer block for each (stereo) output block to get whatever mono/stereo mixdown you want at each output. That's up to 4 mixer blocks for 8 total output channels.
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Hmm. Now you've got me thinking... I don't really have too many blocks in my acoustic patch (nor in my main electric preset) - so I could in theory just have a scene dedicated to the acoustic; toss that mixer block you're talking about and then I'd have everything I need in one preset.

I admit I still don't think I'm understanding your original suggestion - or how it's different than just using the output blocks' panning functions in their respective presets, but if nothing more, it inspired this idea lol! If you don't feel like explaining further, I get it :) Now worries. Thanks for your time anyway.
 
decreebass said:
I admit I still don't think I'm understanding your original suggestion - or how it's different than just using the output blocks' panning functions in their respective presets
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I wasn't sure if output blocks supported global blocks. In any case, having global linked mixer/output blocks would let you adjust something in one preset (for example having keys and elec. guitar in mono at Out 3), save that one preset and get the same result in other presets you've routed similarly. You wouldn't need copies of a preset that only differ in final output connections for different FOH/monitoring scenarios. Does that seem like what you're looking for?
 
Bakerman said:
You wouldn't need copies of a preset that only differ in final output connections for different FOH/monitoring scenarios. Does that seem like what you're looking for?
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I think I see what you mean!

Okay, so; I have all my instruments' paths routed to this mixer block. Then, this mixer block is routed to all outputs. Now, within this mixer block I set up each channel to represent a particular configuration that I need (full PA in stereo + monitor, just FOH, FOH + monitor, and home). So then, when I get to the gig, I can just plug up like normal, switch the mixer block to the appropriate channel for the scenario, and call it a day.

This is perfect! Thank you!

Now, something that I thought about while I was typing this; is there a way to make the mixer block independent of scene changes? If not, how would you suggest I work around this? I like your idea, but if I can't, say, turn the mixer block to ch.2 and have it stay there all night regardless of the scene I'm on, then it may not work as intended.

I think we're almost there - I sincerely appreciate the ideas!
 
decreebass said:
I think I see what you mean!

Okay, so; I have all my instruments' paths routed to this mixer block. Then, this mixer block is routed to all outputs. Now, within this mixer block I set up each channel to represent a particular configuration that I need (full PA in stereo + monitor, just FOH, FOH + monitor, and home). So then, when I get to the gig, I can just plug up like normal, switch the mixer block to the appropriate channel for the scenario, and call it a day.

This is perfect! Thank you!

Now, something that I thought about while I was typing this; is there a way to make the mixer block independent of scene changes? If not, how would you suggest I work around this? I like your idea, but if I can't, say, turn the mixer block to ch.2 and have it stay there all night regardless of the scene I'm on, then it may not work as intended.

I think we're almost there - I sincerely appreciate the ideas!
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Note that he mentioned a Global mixer block. The idea being you use the same Global block in each needed preset. You change it at the gig and save it. All required presets are now ready.
 
Separate mixer block for each output. (Or just use output block levels if output block supports globals, switching output mode in I/O menu if needed.) No need for multiple channels. You'd be adjusting the one channel used and storing the preset so every linked block uses that setting.
 
unix-guy said:
Note that he mentioned a Global mixer block. The idea being you use the same Global block in each needed preset. You change it at the gig and save it. All required presets are now ready.
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Well, if I'm doing that, then why have a mixer block at all? The idea is to not have to change anything (other than, as I mentioned, quickly change the channel on the mixer block to match the venue). otherwise I might as well have different routing on all presets (as per my original, clunky plan).

Bakerman said:
Separate mixer block for each output. (Or just use output block levels if output block supports globals, switching output mode in I/O menu if needed.) No need for multiple channels. You'd be adjusting the one channel used and storing the preset so every linked block uses that setting.
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I think I'm back to square one. Now I once again have no idea what you mean or how this would benefit my situation. Again, not sure how globally linked mixer blocks will help at all, let alone multiple ones that I have to edit on the spot at the gig.

I think the scene-independent mixer block is the ideal situation. I guess if that's not possible, it's not too big of a deal using one channel of a mixer block as I described ( All paths > Mixer > all outputs) and just quickly adjust stuff either at the gig or before, while I'm preparing my set lists. It's not too much work since it's really just a matter of panning a few things.

Actually, I've never used the mixer block, so I don't know if it'd be possible to pan one path to multiple outputs simultaneously.

I know I'm probably seeming pretty dense at the moment. I just need to have the unit in front of me and see all the possible options :)
 
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