Gibson Petition

Almost 10k signatures already. It'd be nice if they would listen in Washington for a change
 
I'm torn on this. On one hand I think Gibson is being treated unfairly. On the other hand they DID violate the Lacey act. Just because others violated the act and aren't being investigated doesn't mean Gibson shouldn't be investigated. The right answer is that ALL companies involved in the alleged violations should be treated equally.

The problem appears to be that the DOJ is singling out one company for seemingly political reasons which is not cool.
 
Seems to me the public has only heard one side of this story, that of Gibson corp. None of us really knows anything in detail, but everyone is entitled to an opinion, regardless of how well informed by facts from relevant parties. Gibson clearly has a strong opinion on this matter but I can't honestly form my own opinion without more facts.

So are we supposed to sign this petition because we like Gibson guitars? I bet if Eminem's mansion was raided for drugs he could get a million sigs on a petition the next day from fans claiming he's innocent. I understand this is devastating PR for Gibson and this is a way for them to get their side of the story out there for damage control, but I'm not sure it's the best way.. too me it would be better to just say "we're innocent, this is unfair" and move on.
 
Actually, we DON'T know if they've violated the Lacey Act. According to Gibson, the Justice Department hasn't given them specifics on the raid and they haven't filed any charges whatsoever. Basically, they came in, took their crap, and left. Gibson doesn't even have a court to appeal the charges, because there are no charges. Did they actually violate any law? Who knows. All of their wood was inspected and proper papers filed and stamped. There are some holes in this story though, considering there were warrants, which should have the charges listed.

The crappy part is, if you take a gibson guitar across state lines, YOU can be charged with importing illegal wood.

I don't want to sign this petition because I don't think it addresses the proper problem. I don't know if Gibson is innocent or not. I just think the justice department needs to release specifics of their violations to them and either charge them or give them their wood back. That's a petition I would sign.
 
I've read a lot of comments on the web which basically say: "Hey, this is a guitar company, and this is an USA company, so screw that 'wood-protecting' law."
I think that's narrow-minded in many ways.
 
Actually, we DON'T know if they've violated the Lacey Act. According to Gibson, the Justice Department hasn't given them specifics on the raid and they haven't filed any charges whatsoever. Basically, they came in, took their crap, and left. Gibson doesn't even have a court to appeal the charges, because there are no charges. Did they actually violate any law? Who knows. All of their wood was inspected and proper papers filed and stamped. There are some holes in this story though, considering there were warrants, which should have the charges listed.
You can read the affidavit supporting the search warrant. I think the info you seek is in there:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/arts/GibsonWarrant.pdf
 
I have no idea about the merit of the case against Gibson. I agree with Yek that Gibson shouldn't get away illegal doings because people think they're a great American company (some people think they're actually not so great and dominated by Henry's whims, but that's another story). As to the political motivation, who knows? That's a piss poor amount of $ to care about in the scheme of overall donations.

To say that the law should be used fairly and equally is a great ideal, but it's only that, an ideal. There are laws against all kinds of activities that lead to our economy being the disaster it is and there's been almost no charges brought against anyone. It's illegal to do insider trading. Yea, right. I'll be interested to see how it plays out, but I'm not signing Gibson's petition. The point about Eminem was well taken. Popularity contests don't bear on the merit of a legal case.
 
You can read the affidavit supporting the search warrant. I think the info you seek is in there:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/arts/GibsonWarrant.pdf

I read that whole thing and it sounds like the shipments were fraudulently labeled. So, they were shipping in full logs of rosewood, but labeling them as fingerboards. I still think charges need to be filed or give them their wood back.

The Lacey Act sounds like it was amended in 2010 to keep manufacturing in India, not to protect trees. You can import wood under 6mm of thickness? That's just silly.
 
This what the petition specifically is trying to address:

Gibson is reaching out to all Gibson Guitar fans, Gibson Guitar dealers, artists, musicians, members of the media, bloggers, politicians and anyone who loves the guitar to sign this petition and demand:

The current investigation of Gibson will be stopped and brought to a fair and conclusive settlement

The Lacey Act will be amended to provide clear guidance on how corporations can comply

Consumers will not be prosecuted for owning or transporting instruments for their own use

“Gibson is innocent and will fight to protect its rights,” Juszkiewicz said. “Gibson has complied with foreign laws and believes it is innocent of any wrong doing. We will fight aggressively to prove our innocence.”

Gibson's guilt or innocence has not been proven, and they deserve their day in court. The Federal government is grandstanding and delaying and it is not fair. If Gibson is found to have knowingly participated in a violation of the Lacey Act, then bad on them. But what if not? This petition is about getting a resolution and clarity into the process, and I'll be signing it and passing it along - without apology.
 
What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Let's personalize this. The cops get a warrant without any real clear knowledge that you are actually committing a crime. Perhaps your neighbor, Mr. Fender, called the cops and said, I think there is some bad stuff going on over at the Gibson's place. Cops come in, round up your family putting them in the front yard, and take your stuff. Tag it and bag it. Couple of years later, you still have not been charged with any wrongdoing, or convicted of any crime, but the cops still have your stuff. Then they come back and do it again. Same result.

So which one of you, if this was happening to you PERSONALLY, would be OK with it?
 
I read the entire affidavit. This is where all our tax money is going. They are sparing no cost in the data analysis to prove a minor discrepancy that hurts no one but the american economy. This is pure waste. Its time for the people to direct a collective "NO" to our govt. They work for us not the other way around as they see it. It is time for common sense to come to the forefront. Our founding fathers would be calling "BRAVO SIERRA" on this one.

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I signed it... what the petition states seems fair as a resolution... Laws should be clear, and accused violations and the abiltiy to defend 'your' innocense should be given.
 
I'm extremely torn on this one as well because I am a fan of Gibson guitars and with the economy how it is this seems like it's such a waste of resources.

But exactly as others have said we have only heard one point of view and that is going to be bias because it's the point of the person who is being accused here. And then when I hear things like "this is Obama's fault" or "our tax money is being wasted when we have more important issues" it just makes me cringe a bit. First off I am pretty sure that the Lacey Act was ammended to include illegal lumber during the Bush administration. Secondly the DOJ isn't charged with taking care of the things outside it's scope and it's resources which include manpower and money assigned to them and are doing what they are supposed to do. If they weren't out there investigating illegal activity then that would be fraud, waste and abuse because that means they aren't doing their jobs. They may be completely wrong, but that's why there is an entire process involved and we haven't arrived at the end yet.

But what really irks me (and I'm not a huge Obama fan) is the idea that the President is sitting in the White House with 20 aids coming up with a plan of attack and he picks up the phone and says "you guys are cleared for operation Ebony Justice" is laughable. He has nothing to do with this. This was someone else's call; if you want to be mad at Obama for something be mad at him for a slew of other things, if you want to be mad at someone for this investigation then be mad at the DOJ. I do think that there are some potential procedural practices that they need to take a long hard look at, such as using full auto weapons to infultrate a respected business like it's some crackhouse or terrorist hideout. If they are seizing materials there needs to be clear and full disclosure as to why. But once again we're hearing one side and people have been known to exaggerate when telling their side. I mean full auto weapons; is that standard issue, were they brandishing the weapons and firing into the air while screaming "get some"? Or were they just on their person as personal protection because their regulations and procedures dictate it?

I just don't buy into the political conspiracy theories on this, there is nothing to gain by going out and attacking a business on US soil for no reason. I don't think that they are holding Gibson's political affiliations against them and I don't think that there is anything more to it then either a legitimate investigation which will result in Gibson being proven innocent or guilty.

It sounds like spin doctoring to me and someone in the Gibson camp came up with the bright idea to use today's best medium which is social media. And I'm sorry, but this wreaks of half truths and ass covering. A company as big as Gibson is going to have entire legal teams in place that look for loopholes in laws and regulations in order to maximize profit; I'm thinking that this is where the crux of all of this is going to lie. Something like using a 3rd party to purchase the material and then buy it from them so that there is no direct connection...basically something to circumvent the law which is still violating the intent of the law. Once again, I am a cynic, but you can't argue with the power of the internet and people's love of conspiracy, dissatisfaction with the government and love of a cause especially when it's so easy to use the "we're providing jobs to Americans and big gov't is always wrong" line to pull at the heart strings.

Either way it will have a resolution at some point and that's what I am waiting for.
 
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Oh really?

I just don't buy into the political conspiracy theories on this, there is nothing to gain by going out and attacking a business on US soil for no reason. shasha, the question I have to ask is how do you know that?
I love Gibson guitars too, and I don't doubt for a second that they would break the law to make a buck. But.."Justice" has been for sale for a long time. The tree police are just a cog in the wheel of the machine.
 
shasha, the question I have to ask is how do you know that?
I love Gibson guitars too, and I don't doubt for a second that they would break the law to make a buck. But.."Justice" has been for sale for a long time. The tree police are just a cog in the wheel of the machine.
I don't know it just as we don't know all parts of the issue. But I don't see what is gained here by abusing power to bully a company in terms of politics. There's seperation between the branches of gov't here; I don't see how performing an 'illegal raid' benefits anyone in law enforcement. If anything they only stand to lose credibilty and their jobs.
 
I don't doubt they did something illegal. The separation of powers is the irrelevant. Realistically what my point is .. he who has the gold MAKES the rules. It's not right. It's not fair. But it is the sad truth of how it works. See also.. Energy industry, Pharmaceutical, Financial/Banking, Defense,and on and on.. aka the rule Maker's.
So here are some more accurate questions to ponder.
Who stands to gain by this? Law enforcement? yep! That have a budget to meet too! Fines baby. This is going to cost Gibson a hunk of cash, guilty or innocent.
Just getting to court would bankrupt most small business. So they plead to some charge, hand over a check, and justice is served.
 
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