Getting to grips with Scenes vs Patches

adew

adew

Inspired
In the lull before receiving my new Axe FX-II and MFC101, I'm trying to read as much as possible (manual, wiki, etc) to give me a bit of head start once the unit arrives. All good so far.

However, I'm struggling a little to fully understand the scenario in which Scenes are preferable to Patches.

For example, playing live, say a particular song requires 3 sounds: rhythm tone, lead and some other variation of lead or rhythm tone with an effect (eg chorus). Is it best to have one patch for the song and then use scenes for each of the three elements? In this particular example, assume that the amp and cab model is going to be the same for all three sounds.

If these different song parts called for different amp sounds, eg a Fenderish clean and a hi-gain thrash grind, would Scenes still be the way to do it?

Thanks.
 
I think the main reasons are simplicity and no dropout when switching. Using the lower buttons to change in a live setting is much easer to navigate with your foot then trying to place you foot on the right button somewhere in all of those buttons :lol
 
and also to better preserve the reverb and delay tails when switching from rhythm to solo tone for example
 
Scenes are really only "states" of the effects On/ off , X/Y. If you need only the "small" set-up scenes is the way to go. If you need to switch between complex routings from sound to sound Patches are the way to go. AND you can use scenes here also. It really is very useful once you get the grasp of it. Feel free to ask more questions if you need to. Kind regards AAEN
 
I've found that if you mix scenes with modifiers [on the same IA switches] you can work some real magic..

for example
scene1 + modifier extern5 min values
scene2 + modifier extern5 max values

the scene switching prevents chewing up lots of modifiers to simply turn things on/off
the modifiers can then handle the things [parameters] that the scenes can't get at

that said...
I've just built a preset with 4 scenes and I've still used up all 24 modifiers...
and of course... I need a 25th... dohh ! ! !
 
Sixstring said:
I think the main reasons are simplicity and no dropout when switching. Using the lower buttons to change in a live setting is much easer to navigate with your foot then trying to place you foot on the right button somewhere in all of those buttons :lol
Click to expand...
Thanks. That's what I thought too, but it's good to have it confirmed.

clarky said:
and also to better preserve the reverb and delay tails when switching from rhythm to solo tone for example
Click to expand...
Ah-ha! Very important for me too.

AAEN said:
Scenes are really only "states" of the effects On/ off , X/Y. If you need only the "small" set-up scenes is the way to go. If you need to switch between complex routings from sound to sound Patches are the way to go. AND you can use scenes here also. It really is very useful once you get the grasp of it. Feel free to ask more questions if you need to. Kind regards AAEN
Click to expand...
For the most part, certainly in a live environment with my band, the sounds will be variations of a base sound. The X/Y thing makes more sense to me now, too. Thanks. So, really, I can imagine it like a traditional pedalboard with one scene being with my chorus pedal in and another being with the chorus out. Right? (Visually this type of thing makes understanding easier! LOL)

clarky said:
I've found that if you mix scenes with modifiers [on the same IA switches] you can work some real magic..
Click to expand...
Interesting! I was even starting to wonder about this myself.

Thanks all for the super speedy replies!
 
Don't forget that you could use 2 amp blocks with 4 differing amp options with x/y!!

However latency and lag become an issue.


And x/y options are available as well for majority of the effect blocks for that matter!

Would be great if differing amp settings could be saved in scenes as well.
It would prevent utilizing x/y or another amp block and prevent lag time latency.

But ....working for me thus far!
 
It also can simplify maintenance of presets. By using scenes instead of similar presets, you can avoid redundant preset updates or block copying to keep them similar. The changes might be due to firmware upgrades or just general tweaking/refinement.
 
aleclee said:
It also can simplify maintenance of presets. By using scenes instead of similar presets, you can avoid redundant preset updates or block copying to keep them similar. The changes might be due to firmware upgrades or just general tweaking/refinement.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that. The mist is clearing fast, and I can't wait to get my hands on AxeFX - hopefully by the end of this week.
 
I definitely see the advantage of using scenes, but for several of the songs we play I am currently using 5 or 6 different amps/amp settings. I'm thinking how to be more efficient so I might be able to use one patch per song with various scenes, but it's quite tricky... Sorry if this is a bit of a thread hijacking, but at least it's related to me getting to grips with scenes vs patches. ;) Possibly this kind of thinking might be helpful for others too, as a kind of practical example.

So, for one particular song I'm looking at the following combinations:
Scene 1: Amp1X(clean)+multi-delay
Scene 2: Amp1X(clean)+reverb1
Scene 3: Amp1Y(clean)+drive1+reverb1 (slight EQ and level adjustment in the amp block)
Scene 4: Amp2X(overdrive)+reverb2
Scene 5: Amp2Y(overdrive)+reverb2+delay (solo sound; amp gain, EQ, level and lo-cut adjusted)
Scene 6: Amp3X(distortion)+reverb2
Scene 7: Amp3Y(distortion)+reverb2+delay (solo sound; amp gain, EQ, level and lo-cut adjusted)

The EQ, level and lo-cut adjustments I could probably put in a PEQ block to get a similar result, but changing the amp gain has to be done in the amp block. I don't really know how I might be able to circumvent that, so I'd still end up with too many amp block requirements. Possibly I might control gain with my expression pedal, but I need the solo sounds to engage all-at-once, not switching to the solo scene and then putting my foot on the expression pedal to get to my desired gain setting:

Scene 1: Amp1X(clean)+multi-delay
Scene 2: Amp1X(clean)+reverb1
Scene 3: Amp1X(clean)+drive1+reverb1+PEQ1
Scene 4: Amp1Y(overdrive)+reverb2
Scene 5: Amp2X(overdrive)+reverb2+delay+PEQ2 (solo sound; amp gain adjusted)
Scene 6: Amp2Y(distortion)+reverb2
Scene 7: Amp3X(distortion)+reverb2+delay+PEQ3 (solo sound; amp gain adjusted)

If anyone has any ideas to further optimize this I'd love to hear them. :) I see clarky's response about modifiers coupled to certain scenes; I'm not too familiar with employing modifiers, but is that something I might be able to use to solve my amp gain switching problem in this case?
 
AAEN said:
Scenes are really only "states" of the effects On/ off , X/Y. If you need only the "small" set-up scenes is the way to go. If you need to switch between complex routings from sound to sound Patches are the way to go.
Click to expand...

Scenes are much much more than just X/Y states. They also involve blocks being on/off per scene and differences in levels. This makes it possible to combine very differect sounds into a single preset using scenes.
 
Scenes work like a charm if you learn these facts:


There will be lag when switching amps internally, if they differ too much in nature. Like switching from a clean Fender to a saturated Friedman. Sometimes you can take this lag to a minimum, maybe trying similar amps (or even the same one with diff settings).
It is also very important to choose the right delay and reverb settings for each scene, since you can get strange artifacts when switching say from a tape delay to a digital delay within te same patch (just think that your delay needs to morph from one to another, so its hard)

Eventhough all this, I still use this functionality on my patches. Just keep in mind to make small pauses when switching to certain scenes, that way you wont hear gaps, nor artifacts. And you'll be able to for example have a nice effected clean, followed by a drier rhythm tone, and then a lead tone with delays back on, and a variation for the lead tone. 4 scenes do the trick for me. I also setup my presets the same way.
1 will usually be a clean to mid dirt patch 2 will be a nice rhythm (from midgain on). Patch 3 will be a lead tone (full singing clean or high gain) and patch 4 will be a lead as well.
So I think of every bank as a different setup, with 4 channels and 4 gain stages. And the magic to it all, is that on certain patches, you can just hit reveal, and get your 4 scenes within the patch.

Im waiting or an extension module for the mfc, so I'll have my 4 scenes available at every time.
 
clarky said:
I've found that if you mix scenes with modifiers [on the same IA switches] you can work some real magic..

for example
scene1 + modifier extern5 min values
scene2 + modifier extern5 max values

the scene switching prevents chewing up lots of modifiers to simply turn things on/off
the modifiers can then handle the things [parameters] that the scenes can't get at
Click to expand...
Clarky,

Can you expand on this please?

Something I want to be able to do is to modify one or more parameters when switching scenes. For example, to keep it simple, say I have a preset with a DLY block and I want Scene #1 delay mix to be 10% and feedback 20%, and Scene #2 delay mix to be 40% and feedback 50%. I don't want to use an expression pedal to do this, I just want instant change to these new values when changing scenes within this preset via the MFC-101. Is this do-able?

Thanks!

PS: Feel free to point me to the relevant documentation/wiki. Cheers!

PPS: Crikey, this Axe Fx malarkey sure has a steep early learning curve. :)
 
It's been said before but scenes have seamless switching and all of your effects stay in tact. You can do some really creative switching/morphing with them and reduce the amount of tap dancing you have to do in a set.
 
I approach scenes the same way I approached loop strips on my old pedalboards.

Basically I use it to minimize pedal dancing.
 
adew said:
Clarky,

Can you expand on this please?

Something I want to be able to do is to modify one or more parameters when switching scenes. For example, to keep it simple, say I have a preset with a DLY block and I want Scene #1 delay mix to be 10% and feedback 20%, and Scene #2 delay mix to be 40% and feedback 50%. I don't want to use an expression pedal to do this, I just want instant change to these new values when changing scenes within this preset via the MFC-101. Is this do-able?

Thanks!

PS: Feel free to point me to the relevant documentation/wiki. Cheers!

PPS: Crikey, this Axe Fx malarkey sure has a steep early learning curve. :)
Click to expand...

There are a couple ways to do that, but the easiest is x/y switching. So, scene 1 would have your X state 100% mix on, scene 2 would switch that block to Y, which is 40%.

Edit: actually, the easiest way is with 2 delay blocks. Scene 1 has delay 1 and scene 2 has delay 2.
 
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Sidivan said:
There are a couple ways to do that, but the easiest is x/y switching. So, scene 1 would have your X state 100% mix on, scene 2 would switch that block to Y, which is 40%.

Edit: actually, the easiest way is with 2 delay blocks. Scene 1 has delay 1 and scene 2 has delay 2.
Click to expand...

Ah-ha! That makes sense. Thanks, Sidivan!
 
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